Volume III WednesdayNo. 12 21st June, 1961

PA R L I AMENTA RYD E B ATES

DEWAN RA 'AYAT(HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

OFFICIAL REPORT

CONTENTSORAL ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS [Col. 11631 (contn.)

MOTIONS:

Employees Provident Fund Alleged Mal-administration[Col. 1165]

Anggerek Kinta di-jadikan Bunga Kebangsaan [Col. 11851

Hospital Charges and Specialists ' Fees [Col. 1229]

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE (Motion) [Col. 1248]

DI-CHBTAK DI-JABATAN CHETAK KERAJAAN

OLEH THOR BENG CHONG, PEMANGKU PENCHETAK KERAJAAN

PERSEKUTUAN TANAH MELAYU

1962

FEDERATION OF MALAYA

DEWAN RA'AYAT

(HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES)

Official Report

Third Session of the First Dewan Ra`ayat

Wednesday , 21st June, 1961

The House met at Ten o'clock a.m.

PRESENT :

The Honourable Mr. Speaker , DATO' HAJI MOHAMED NOAH BIN OMAR,S.P.M.J ., D,P.M.B ., P.I.S., J.P.

the Prime Minister and Minister of External Affairs,Y.T.M. TUNKU ABDUL RAHMAN PUTRA AL-HAJ, K.O.M.(Kuala Kedah).

the Deputy Prime Minister , Minister of Defence andMinister of Rural Development , TUN HAJI ABDULRAZAK BIN DATO' HUSSAIN , S.M.N. (Pekan).

the Minister of Internal Security and Minister of theInterior, DATO' DR. ISMAIL BIN DATO' HAJI ABDULRAHMAN, P.M.N. (Johor Timor).

the Minister of Finance , ENCHE' TAN SIEW SIN, J .P. (MelakaTengah).

the Minister of Works , Posts and Telecommunications,DATO' V. T. SAMBANTHAN, P.M.N. (Sungai Siput).

„ the Minister of Transport , DATO' SARDON BIN HAJI JUBIR,P.M.N. (Pontian Utara).

the Minister of Health and Social Welfare, DATO' ONGYOKE LIN, P.M .N. (Ulu Selangor).

the Minister of Commerce and Industry , ENCHE' MOHAMEDKHIR BIN JOHARI (Kedah Tengah).

„ the Minister of Education , ENCHE' ABDUL RAHMAN BINHAJI TALIB (Kuantan).

the Assistant Minister of Information and Broadcasting,TUAN SYED JA`AFAR ALBAR BIN HASAN ALBAR, J.M.N.(Johor Tenggara).

the Assistant Minister of Education, ENCHE' ABDUL HAMIDKHAN BIN HAJI SAKHAWAT ALI KHAN, J.M.N., J .P. (BatangPadang).

the Assistant Minister of Rural Development, TUAN HAJIABDUL KHALID BIN AWANG OSMAN (Kota Star Utara).

the Assistant Minister of Labour, ENCHE' V. MANICKA-VASAGAM , J.M.N., P .J.K. (Kiang).

the Assistant Minister of the Interior , ENCHE' MOHAMEDISMAIL BIN MOHAMED YUSOF (Jerai).

1159 21 JUNE 1961 1160 r

The Honourable ENCHE' ABDUL GHANI BIN ISHAK, A.M.N. (Melaka Utara).

ENCHE' ABDUI. RAUF BIN A. RAHMAN (Krian Laut).

„ ENCHE' ABDUL SAMAD BIN OSMAN (Sungai Patani).

„ TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI ABDUL RAOF (KualaKangsar).

TUAN HAJI ABDULLAH BIN HAJI MOHD. SALLEH, A.M.N.,P.I.s. (Segamat Utara).

TURN HAJI AHMAD BIN ABDULLAH (Kota Bharu Hilir).

ENCHE' AHMAD BIN ARSHAD, A.M.N. (Muar Utara).

„ ENCHE' AHMAD BOESTAMAM (Setapak).

TURN HAJI AHMAD BIN SAAID (Seberang Utara).

ENCHE' AHMAD BIN HAJI YUSOF, P.J.K. (Krian Darat).

TUAN HAJI AZAHARI BIN HAM IBRAHIM (Kubang PasuBarat).

ENCHE' Azlz BIN ISHAK (Muar Dalam).

DR. BURHANUDDIN BIN MOHD. NooR (Besot).

„ ENCHE' CHAN SIANG SUN (Bentong).

„ ENCHE' CHAN SWEE Ho (Ulu Kinta).

ENCHE' CHAN YOON ONN (Kampar).

„ ENCHE' CHIN SEE YIN (Seremban Timor).

ENCHE' V. DAVID (Bungsar).

„ DATIN FATIMAH BINTI HAJI HASHIM, P.M.N. (Jitra-PadangTerap).

„ ENCHE' GEH CHONG KEAT (Penang Utara).

„ ENCHE' HAMZAH BIN ALANG, A.M.N. (Kapar).

ENCHE' HANAFI BIN MOHD. YUNUS, A.M.N. (Kulim Utara).

ENCHE' HARUN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Baling).

TUAN HAJI HASAN ADLI BIN HAJI ARSHAD (Kuala Treng-

ganu Utara).„ TUAN HAJI HASSAN BIN HAJI AHMAD (Tumpat).

„ ENCHE' HASSAN BIN MANSOR (Melaka Selatan).

ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN TO' MUDA HASSAN (Raub).

„ ENCHE' HUSSEIN BIN MOHD. NOORDIN, A.M.N., P.J.K. (Pant).

„ TUAN HAJI HUSSAIN RAHIMI BIN HAJI SAMAN (Kota Bharu

Hulu).

ENCHE' IBRAHIM BIN ABDUL RAHMAN (Seberang Tengah).

ENCHE' ISMAIL BIN IDRIS (Penang Selatan).

ENCHE' KANG KOCK SENG (Batu Pahat).

„ ENCHE' K. KARAM SINGH (Damansara).

„ CHE' KHADIJAH BINTI MOHD. SIDEK (Dungun).

„ ENCHE' KHONG KOK YAT (Batu Gajah).

ENCHE' LEE SAN CROON (Kluan g Utara).

ENCHE' LEE SECK FUN (Tanjong Malim).

ENCHE' LEE SIOK YEW, A.M.N. (Sepang).

ENCHE' LIM Joo KONG (Alor Star).

DR. LIM SWEE AUN, J.P. (Larut Selatan).

1161 21 JUNE 1961 1162

The Honourable ENCHE' Liu YOONG PENG (Rawang).„ ENCHE' T. MAHIMA SINGH , J.P. (Port Dickson).

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED BIN UJANG (Jelebu-Jempol).

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED ABBAS BIN AHMAD (Hilir Perak) .

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED ASRI BIN HAJI MUDA (Pasir Puteh) .

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED DAHARI BIN HAJI MOHD . ALI (KualaSelangor).

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED NOR BIN MOHD. DAHAN (Ulu Perak).

„ ENCHE' MOHAMED SULONG BIN MOHD . ALI, J.M.N. (Lipis).

„ ENCHE ' MOHAMED YUSOF BIN MAHMUD, A.M.N. (Temerloh).

„ TUAN HAJI MOKHTAR BIN HAJI ISMAIL (Perlis Selatan).

„ ENCHE ' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH (Tanah Merah).

ENCHE' OTHMAN BIN ABDULLAH, A.M.N. (Perlis Utara).

„ TUAN HAJI REDZA BIN HAJI MOHD . SAID (Rembau-Tampin).

„ ENCHE ' SEAR TENG NGIAB (Muar Pantai).

„ ENCHE' S. P. SEENIVASAGAM (Menglembu).

„ TUAN SYED ESA BIN ALWEE , J.M.N ., S.M.J., P.I.S. (BatuPahat Dalam).

„ TUAN SYED HASHIM BIN SYED ADAM , A.M.N., P .J.K. (SabakBernam).

„ ENCHE' TAN CHENG BEE, J.P. (Bagan).

„ ENCHE' TAN PHOCK KIN (Tanjong).

ENCHE' TAN TYE CHEK (Kulim-Bandar Bahru).

„ TENGKU BESAR INDERA RAJA IBNI AL-MARHUM SULTAN

IBRAHIM, D.K., P.M.N. (Ulu Kelantan).„ DATO' TEOH CHZE CHONG, D.P.M.J., J.P. (Segamat Selatan).

ENCHE ' Too JooN HING (Telok Anson).ENCHE ' V . VEERAPPEN (Seberang Selatan) .

„ WAN MUSTAPHA BIN HAJI ALI (Kelantan Hilir).

„ WAN SULAIMAN BIN WAN TAM, P.J.K. (Kota Star Selatan).

„ WAN YAHYA BIN HAJI WAN MOHAMED (Kemaman).

„ ENCHE' YAHYA BIN HAJI AHMAD (Bagan Datoh).

„ ENCHE' YEOH TAT BENG (Bruas).

„ PUAN HAJJAH ZAIN BINTI SULAIMAN, J.M.N., P.I.S. (PontianSelatan).

„ TUAN HAJI ZAKARIA BIN HAJI MOHD. TAIB (Langat).

„ ENCHE' ZULKIFLEE BIN MUHAMMAD (Bachok).

ABSENT

The Honourable DATO' SULAIMAN BIN DATO' HAJI ABDUL RAHMAN, P.M.N.(Minister without Portfolio) (Muar Selatan) (on leave).

the Minister. of Agriculture and Co-operatives, ENCHE'ABDUL Aziz BIN ISHAK (Kuala Langat).

the Minister of Labour, ENCHE' BAHAMAN BIN SAMSUDIN(Kuala Pilah).

the Assistant Minister of Commerce and Industry, ENCHE'CHEAH THEAM SWEE (Bukit Bintang) .

1163 21 JUNE 1961 1164

The Honourable ENCHE' AHMAD BIN MOHAMED SHAH, S.M.J. (Johore BahruBarat).

ENCHE' CHAN CHONG WEN, A.M.N. (Kluang Selatan).

ENCHE' HARUN BIN PILUS (Trengganu Tengah).

ENCHE' LIM KEAN SIEW (Dato Kramat).

DATO' MOHAMED HANIFAH BIN HAJI ABDUL GHANI, P.J.K.(Pasir Mas Hulu).

NIK MAN BIN NIK MOHAMED (Pasir Mas Hilir).

ENCHE' NG ANN TECK (Batu).

DATO' ONN BIN JA`AFAR, D.K., D.P.M.J. (Kuala TrengganuSelatan).

ENCHE' QUEK KAI DONG, J.P. (Seremban Barat).

ENCHE' D. R. SEENIVASAGAM (Ipoh).

ENCHE' TAJUDIN BIN ALT, P.J.K . (Larut Utara).ENCHE' TAN KEE GAK (Bandar Malacca).ENCHE' YONG WOO MING (Sitiawan).

IN ATTENDANCE :

The Honourable the Minister of Justice, TuN LEONG YEW KOH, S.M.N.

PRAYERS

(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)

ORAL ANSWERS TOQUESTIONS

Bantuan kapada pekebun2 kechll

1. Enche ' Ahmad bin Arshad (MuarUtara) bertanya kapada Menteri Per-dagangan dan Perusahaan ada-kahKerajaan berchadang hendak menam-bah bantuan kapada pekebun2 kechilgetah daripada $600 jadi $800; jikademikian, bila.

The Minister of Commerce andIndustry (Enche ' Mohamed KhirJohari): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ber-kenaan dengan chadangan hendakmenambah bantuan kapada pekebunkechll, perkara ini Kerajaan telahmelantek sa-buah jawatan-kuasa, danpenyata jawatan-kuasa itu akan di-keluarkan tidak berapa lama lagi.

Bantuan menanam sa-mula kelapa danpokok buah2an

2. Enche ' Ahmad bin Arshad bertanyakapada Menteri Pertanian dan Sharikat-Kerjasama apa-kah bantuan yang di-beri oleh Kerajaan kapada petani2 (a)untok menanam sa-mula pokok kelapa;

(b) untok menanam sa-mula pokok2buah2an.

The Minister of Transport (Dato'Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, saya menjawab bagi pehakrakan saya kerana is tidak ada di-sini.

Kerajaan tidak memberi bantuan ke-bendaan atau kewangan kapada petani2untok menanam sa-mula pohon2 kelapaatau pohon buah2an. Bagaimana pun,ada di-beri bantuan berupa nasihattentang ranchangan dan chara menanamsa-mula kelapa atau pokok buah2an,dan bagaimana mendapat alat2 ta-naman, baja dan sa-bagai-nya. Bantuankebendaan ada-lah di-berikan, sabagai-mana Ahli Yang Berhormat sendirima`alum, untok ranchangan menanamsa-mula getah di-mana petani2 bersetujuhendak menanam kelapa atau buah2andalam tanah getah tua mereka. Bantuankewangan melalui pinjaman untok me-majukan kebun2 kelapa boleh di-dapatidaripada Lembaga Pinjaman kapadapekebun2 kechil dalam empat buahnegeri yang dahulu-nya di-sebut Negeri2Melayu Bersekutu (F.M.S.).

Dalam Ranchangan Lima TahunKedua, sa-bagaimana yang terma`alumoleh Ahli Yang Berhormat sendiri, per-untokan wang telah di-perolehi untokmemberi bantuan menanam sa-mula

1165 21 JUNE 1961 1166

pokok2 kelapa dan pokok buah2an dankerja2 menyiapkan kedua2 ranchanganitu sedang di-teruskan dan segala per-tolongan akan di-beri dalam tahun1962.

MOTIONS

EMPLOYEES PROVIDENTFUND ALLEGED MAL-

ADMINISTRATION

Order read for resumption of debateon Question,

"This House expresses grave concern overthe mal-administration of the EmployeesProvident Fund and calls upon the Govern-ment to institute an inquiry into the same inthe public interest."

Question again proposed.

The Minister of Finance (Enche' TanSiew Sin): Mr . Speaker, Sir, I note thatthe Honourable Member for Bungsarlooks fit and fresh this morning .

Enche' V. David (Bungsar): Mr.Speaker, Sir, has it any relevance tothe subject? I am always fresh andhealthy. I am not suffering from anychronic disease like the HonourableMember (Laughter).

Enche ' Tan Siew Sin: . . . and Ihope, like me, he is looking forwardwith equal eagerness to a furtherexamination of this rather interestingsubject.

Sir, let us now deal with some of hismore specific allegations. He startedoff by saying that security arrangementsin the Board's premises were so slackthat an intruder was even able to gainentry into those premises. Needless toadd, this story, which must obviouslyhave sprung from the depths of hisimagination and Honourable Memberswill probably agree that he has a highlydeveloped sense of fiction is com-pletely without foundation.

The Honourable Member also quoteda number of audit queries which, accor-ding to him, reflected adversely on theBoard of the Fund. To begin with,audit queries are not a Ministerial res-ponsibility. If the Auditor-General isnot satisfied with the way the affairs ofthe Fund have been conducted, he will

so report and, as I have informedHonourable Members, his reports so farhave been eminently satisfactory. I haveno doubt that the members of theBoard, unlike the Honourable Memberfor Bungsar who, mercifully, is blessedwith an unusually tough epidermis,would take suitable remedial measuresif the Auditor-General had commentedadversely on any aspect of the Board'sfinancial management.

In the course of his long and viciousspeech, he tried to give examples ofalleged misdemeanours by the Fund.When one is dealing with over onemillion accounts, it is obviously notpossible to give a detailed reply toallegations of what, after all, are onlyminor mistakes made in good faith,even if they were true. Perfection ofoperation must necessarily depend notonly on the Fund's staff itself, but uponcomplete and flawless co-operationbetween the three parties to the transac-tion, namely, the Fund itself, theemployer and the employee. Any act ofomission or carelessness on the part ofany of these three parties can delaypostings, payments on withdrawal, andthe like. I believe that any reasonableman, after hearing the speech of theHonourable Member for Bungsar lastnight, would have been surprised tolearn that the number of mistakes havebeen so small considering the magni-tude of the Fund's operations, and itshould be remembered that the Honour-able Member for Bungsar has left nostone unturned in his effort to smearthe name of the Board as much aspossible. It is not, however, altogethersurprising, because the Fund is awareof the tremendous difficulties it has tocontend with and is continually en-deavouring to improve its organisation,including its accounting arrangements,and has installed the most modern andelaborate mechanical equipment inorder to help it in this very essentialtask. In fact, I myself find thismechanised accounting so fascinatingthat it is interesting to me even onsubsequent visits; and if HonourableMembers would care to pay a visit tothe Fund's office in Petaling Jaya, Ihave no doubt that they would bewelcomed by the Board's Staff.

1167 21 JUNE 1961

In this connection, it may be interest-ing to add that the Honourable moverof the motion is a frequent visitor tothe Board's office, where he is treatedwith courtesy and respect, which hedoes not reciprocate; and great troubleis taken by the officers of the Fundconcerned to see that all the matters heraises are dealt with to his satisfaction.But the matters he raises with themanagement of the Fund are never thematters he raises in this House, and itis curious that the cases he quotes inthe House are almost invariably notoriginated by outside complainants, butare extracted from the Board's recordsof cases discovered and correctedwithin the Board's office. The Honour-able Member manages to secure a greatdeal of half-baked and half-understoodinformation by subversion of juniorofficers of the Fund whom he inducesat the risk of their jobs, but needlessto add at no risk to himself, to bringto him what in their ignorance theybelieve to be examples of mal-adminis-tration and which he in his own interestrepresents to this House as such. Inother words, he repays the courtesy andconsideration shown to him by theofficers of the Fund by subverting theirstaff and attacking them in a placewhere they cannot defend themselves.It would have been simple for him toraise with officers of the Fund all thesematters which he raises in this House,but he never does so, preferring to usethem to derogate the management ofthe Fund. Why should the HonourableMember show so much enmity andbitterness towards this particularorganisation? I cannot think that hehas any personal animosity against anyindividual, and the only conclusion Ican draw is that despite all themismanagement he alleges, the organi-sation is never quite ill enough tomanage to lose the records of theHonourable Member's own un-scrupulous transactions (Applause).

Incidentally, I think it would notbe inappropriate to congratulate theBoard's staff on having unearthed thelittle bit of relevant history which Irelated last night. In all my 13 years inthe Legislature of this country, I havenever seen such terror as was written

1168

on the face of the Honourable moverof the motion last night. It is the storyof a man whose sole object was to doharm to others but ended up byharming himself.

Enche' V. David: We can see thatoutside the Chamber.

Enche' Tan Siew Sin: I must saythat I am indebted to the HonourableMember for giving us the opportunitywhich we would otherwise have lacked.

I can assure the Honourable Memberthat the Board will do everything in itspower to improve its accountingarrangements in particular, and willdevote itself with renewed vigour to thepunishment of defaulters. It may evenseek to enlist the help of the Honour-able Member himself in this connectionas he has proved to be so knowledge-able, and I have no doubt that theHonourable mover of this motion, inview of the fact that he obviously feelsvery strongly that defaulters should beprosecuted, will also insist that theyshould be pursued to the bitter endhowever high their station in life mightbe, even though they might be distin-guished trade unionists, who haveblossomed into Members of Parliament.It is particularly despicable to defraudthose who earn their living by thesweat of their brow, and I have nodoubt that the Honourable Member forBungsar, who is always so concernedabout the welfare of the poor and theunder-privileged, must be particularlyanxious that the Board should suitablydeal with employers who fail to live upto their obligations in this regard,particularly those who are also tradeunionists and Members of Parliamentat the same time and who shouldtherefore know better.

Finally, Sir, I think that this Housewould like me, on behalf of theGovernment, to acknowledge the ster-ling services rendered both by theBoard and the Fund not only to theworking people of this country butindeed to the country as a whole(Applause). This institution, whichstarted from very small beginnings notso many years ago, now has assets

1169 21 JUNE 1961

approaching $600 million. In the fore-seeable future this institution isexpected to have assets totalling wellover $3,000 million. These assets con-tinue to grow, and grow impressivelywith every year that passes, so muchso that today it can be said to be thebulwark of the Government's Five-YearDevelopment Plan (Applause). I sub-mit, Sir, that that fact in itself givesthe lie to any allegations of mis-management. A mis-managed institu-tion does not grow from smallbeginnings to a size of $600 million ina few years. If that Plan the Develop-ment Plan about which I have alreadyspoken proves to be a success, and Ihave no reason to believe that it willbe otherwise, the Board can claim thatits substantial resources made a valu-able contribution towards that end. Ihave no doubt too that the Board'sorganisation will improve with theyears in spite of difficult employers and,as I have already pointed out, we havequite a few of such people, though notmany like the Honourable mover ofthe motion, who is admittedly one ofthe most unique of them and is in aclass by himself.

I can end on no better note than byasking the House to reject this motion,and reject it decisively, coupled withan acknowledgment to the Board ofour appreciation of a splendid job welland truly done under difficult circum-stances, a job which is at the same timemaking a massive contribution to ourfuture economic growth and prosperity(Applause).

Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong):Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have heard theHonourable the Minister of Financelast night and this morning, andHonourable Members will agree withme that the bulk of the speech of theMinister is devoted not so muchtowards explaining away the mal-administration but is concerned mainlywith abusing the Honourable Memberfor Bungsar. Hiding under parliamen-tary privilege, he has called theHonourable Member for Bungsar acheat without producing evidence . .

Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Thatword has already been withdrawn.

1170

Enche' V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir,on a point of order, the Honourablethe Minister of Finance has beenallowed to dwell on an irrelevantsubject; therefore, we must have equalopportunity to reply to the allegations.

Mr. Speaker: On what point oforder?

Enche' V. David : Standing Order 36(1) in regard to irrelevancy.

Mr. Speaker: I have ruled the matterrelating to the Union as out of order.

Enche' V. David : Sir, it would beunfair on the part of this House notto hear the other side of the story inregard to the Union the allegationmade.

Mr. Speaker : I have already ruledthat out.

Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Sir , he wenton to discuss various matters withregard to the points raised by theHonourable Member for Bungsar, butI am afraid he failed to substantiatehis allegations. Many a time Honour-able Members of this House raisedpoints of order, but determined as hewas to say what he proposed to sayhe even tried to mislead this House bytelling us that what he proposed to sayabout the Union was relevant thoughknowing very well that it was irrele-vant. The very deplorable performanceof the Honourable Minister is testi-mony of his cowardly character and, tosay the least, he had acted in a mannermost unbecoming for a Minister of theGovernment. If we were to go back tothe question of upbringing, again, Imust say that I am surprised that soeminent a father could have producedso cowardly a son.

I do not know whether his action iscondoned by the Government, but weon this side of the House woulddefinitely like to have a clarification.If debates in this House are going todegenerate into such a level, and ifcharacter assassination is going to beallowed ini this House, then I am afraidMembers on this side of the Housemay be forced in the last resort to the

1171 21 JUNE 1961 1172

same method of debate. I am sure thatif we were to bring up the activities ofthe Honourable the Minister ofFinance his activities in Malaccathey may not bear close scrutiny in thisHouse. So, I hope, Sir, that an as-surance will be given in this House bythe Government that it regrets thedeplorable utterances of the Ministerand that the debate of this House infuture will not degenerate to such alevel.

I shall now come to specific repliesgiven by the Minister. He was arguingthat the cases raised by the HonourableMember for Bungsar are so small that,because of that, everything is well inthe Employees Provident Fund. I mustpoint out here that the HonourableMember for Bungsar has only broughtup issues which he himself is awareand if members of the GovernmentBench are active enough to go roundand speak to the various people whohave accounts with the E.F.F. I feelsure that they themselves will discoverthat quite a great proportion of thepopulation are not by any means satis-fied with the manner in which theE.P.F. is being run, and the proposalsfor a Commission of Inquiry is a veryreasonable proposal. After all even theMinister himself admits that the E.P.F.being such a huge organisation havingso many contributors obviously cannotbe run perfectly. But I feel sure that itis they objective of the Government andof every Ministry to run their depart-ments perfectly. That should be theobjective. One should not put forwardthe excuse that because an organisa-tion is big we can condone mistakeswhich are being made by that organisa-tion. The Minister himself has poin-ted out that the Employees ProvidentFund concerns with three big bodiesfirstly, employers; secondly employees;and thirdly, the Fund. But never havethe Government made any attempt toget view points of these three sections ofpeople who are concerned in the E.P.F.The employers may have theirgrievances in regard to the inade-quacies of the E.P.F.; the employeesmay have their grievances; and theFund many also have some problems.And I feel sure that only a Committee

of Inquiry can get down to all theseproblems and perhaps put forward aReport that will pave the way formaking the E.P.F. a perfect organisa-tion. We must realise that the E.P.F.is concerned with the funds of bothemployers and employees in otherwords, funds of the general publicamounting to millions and millions ofdollars, and the fact that the assets ofthe E.P.F. is increasing year after yearis no testimony of its efficiency. Anyorganisation if given the opportunityof running an E.P.F. even under themost inefficient conditions should alsohave assets, but my contention is thatif the E.P.F. is run efficiently the rateof increase of assets would be higherthan what it is today and I` see noreason why the Minister of Financeshould feel so perturbed because theHonourable Member for Bungsarbrought up such a reasonable proposal.I see no reason why he should abusethe Honourable Member for Bungsarjust because of this. If the HonourableMember for Bungsar had started byattacking the Minister personally Iwould have understood the anxiety ofthe Minister to attack back, but I havelistened very attentively to the Honour-ble Member for Bungsar and on nooccasion did he attack the Ministerpersonally. Therefore, it has been mostsurprising to me to hear the speech ofthe Honourable Minister on such aline.

I would here put forward anothersuggestion for consideration by theMinistry, in the hope that they willagree to the constitution of a Com-mission of Inquiry. I think one of themost inadequate provisions in theE.P.F. is the fact that the E.P.F. makesno provision for differences in thepurchasing power of money. It wouldbe seen that anybody contributing tothe E.P.F. does so for a period of somany years and when he comes of ageand withdraws his money the cost ofliving may have increassed tremen-dously and, therefore, the money hereceives back will have lesser purcha-sing power than at the time when hecontributed it towards the E.P.F. Ibelieve that the E.P.F. in other coun-tries have provisions to vary its value

0

1173 21 JUNE 1961 1174

with any variations in purchasingpower, and I feel sure that a Com-mission of Inquiry can look into thisquestion and evolve a system wherebycontributors to the E.P.F. will not bemade to suffer because of an increaseor decrease in the purchasing power ofmoney.

With all this I feel that the constitu-tion of a Commission of Inquiry isvery necessary, from various points ofview from the point of view of theAdministration and also from the pointof view of equity. I hope the Ministerconcerned will give very seriousconsideration to this and not allow hispersonal views to prevent him fromaccepting a very reasonable proposal.

Enche' Mohamed Sulong bin Mohd.Ali (Lipis): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sayabangun membangkang chadangan yangdi-bawa oleh Yang Berhormat dariBungsar. Saya sangat dukachita keranachadangan ini di-bawa ka-dalamParliamen, sebab sa-tahu saya perkaraini telah bangkit beberapa kali dansaya sendiri telah berchakap berkenaandengan Provident Fund. Sa-tahu sayasa-patut-nya ada rungutan daripadaTrade Union yang ada mewakilimereka itu dalam Board. Saya menga-kui ada sadikit kesusahan berkenaandengan orang yang masok sa-bagaiahli E.P.F., tetapi ini ada-lah ber-sangkut-paut dengan Undang2. Mithal-nya, jika sa-saorang itu masok menjadiahli E.P.F. nominee-nya di-taroh padaorang lain, kemudian apabila is mati,warith-nya menda`awa tentu-lah ta'dapat di-jelaskan, melainkan wang-nyaitu di-bayar kapada nominee.

Bagitu juga berkenaan dengan pe-kerja di-dalam-nya yang di-tudohsa-bagaimana yang kita telah ambiltindakan yang sekarang ini dalampembicharaan. Perkara ini bukan-lahkelalaian daripada Board atau punKetua yang menjaga-nya. Perkara yangsa-umpama ini kita terpaksa menyiasatdengan sa-halus2-nya supaya bila sa-saorang itu di-bawa ka-Court dapatdi-jelaskan (proof) yang is itu salah.

Saya sangat dukachita, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, sebab saya ada-lah sa-orangdaripada ahli yang di-lantek olehRubber Industry dalam Board itu yang

di-persetujui oleh Kerajaan . Sa-lamasaya menjadi ahli dalam Board itusemua pehak ada mewakii dalamBoard itu saperti Trade Union, wakilpekerja2, pehak penggaji , pehak peru-sahaan (industry) dan pehak Kerajaan,tetapi tidak ada satu perkara yangbesar berbangkit dalam Board itu di-antara sate sama lain.

Saya menyokong uchapan. YangBerhormat Menteri Kewangan is-itumemuji pekerjaan Board itu , keranadalam Board itu tiap2 kali meshuarattidak ada satu perkara berbangkittudoh-menudoh sa-bagaimana tudohanyang ada dalam Parlimen mi. Tidakmenasabah pada saya jika sa-kira-nyaTrade Union yang mewakili selurohkaum buroh dan pehak penggaji yangmewakili semua sa-kali penggaji dalamMalaya yang ada di-situ tidak ada satupertelengkahan tetapi sekarang adatudohan dalam Parlimen mi . Yang sayadukachita , Tuan Yang di-Pertua, is-lahyang membawa chadangan ini dalamParlimen ini is-lah sa-orang AhliParlimen yang chuma nampak-nyahendak mempengarohi Trade Union,tetapi perkara itu tidak berbangkitdalam Trade Union.

mi saya sifatkan sa-olah2 sa-bagaisatu publicity untok hendak mencharipengaroh daripada peker jag. Sayasangat suka jika sa-kira-nya pekerja2tidak puas hati menulis surat kapadaBoard dan kita tidak akan mendiam-kan kerana saya pun sa-orang daripadaahli Majlis Meshuarat Parlimen mi.Sa-bagai sa -orang ahli Board sayasedia membawa satu2 perkara yangmenyatakan untok mempunyai hakdi-dalam Board itu. Tetapi sa-lamaini saya tidak dapat satu rungutan pundaripada ahli2 E .P.F. Lagi satu, TuanYang di-Pertua , satu soal yang besaryang kita hadap , ada-kah ra`ayat dalamnegeri ini daripada kaum buroh sukakapada E.P.F. atau tidak suka. Boardini telah di-sahkan dan kita sendiritelah bersetuju maka Board ini men-jalankan kerja-nya mengikut tata tertibdi-dalam undang2 ini, tidak boleh lebehdan tidak boleh kurang daripada itu.Jika sa-kira-nya Ahli Majlis YangBerhormat daripada Parti Socialisttidak suka kapada Board ini ber jalan

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dengan sempurna-nya maka sa-patut-nya mereka itu membuat satu chada-ngan menolak atau menghapuskanundang E.P.F. yang dahulu.

Saya sendiri memikirkan dan bukansa-kali ini saya bangun, dahulu dari-pada ini saya ada berchakap berkenaandengan E.P.F. ini saya memikirkanitu-lah satu chara Board yang akanmenyelamatkan pekerja2-nya dan ini-lah satu Board yang saya fikir dalamtempoh dua tahun lagi akan mengu-rangkan orange tidak ada pekerjaan.Kerana saya dapati dalam tempohdua tahun lagi Board ini akan menjaditidak kurang 500 orang. Jadi Boardini bukan sahaja menolong kapadaorang yang sudah menjadi contributor,tetapi Board ini pada satu hari ataupada satu dua tahun lagi akanmenolong orang yang tidak ada peker-jaan dalam negeri mi. Jadi adatudohan2 yang mengatakan pentadbiranBoard ini tidak sempurna maka kamisa-bagai wakil yang tidak ada kena-mengena dengan orang makan gajidalam Board ini sentiasa memerhatikanpekerjaan Board itu dan kami dapatikalau sa-kira-nya tidak di-tadbirkandengan sempurna tentu-lah Board initidak dapat kemajuan. Tetapi padatiap2 tahun ada kemajuan yang ber-lebeh2an. Sa-patut-nya kita semuamenguchapkan tahniah kapada pentad-bir2-nya.

Saya fikir itu-lah sahaja yang sayahendak beritahu kapada Majlis ini dansaya harap rakan2 saya akan menolakdengan sa-penoh-nya atas chadangan2yang di-bawa oleh Ahli Yang Berhor-mat wakil Bungsar itu.

Eache' S. P. Seenivasagam (Meng-lembu): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do notintend to comment at length on themerits or demerits of the motion whichis before this House, but it wouldappear that from both sides of theHouse very serious and grave allega-tions have been made. From theHonourable Member who moved thismotion, allegations of maladministra-tion in the E.P.F. have been made;and from the Honourable the Ministerof Finance, very, very serious allega-tions have been made against theHonourable Member for Bungsar.

Now, in view of the fact that theseallegations against the E.P.F. are beingpersisted in at every meeting of thisHouse, at every opportunity in thisHouse, by the Honourable Membersof the Socialist Front, I am ratherpuzzled to see why the Governmentdoes not seize the opportunity to holdan inquiry, which they ask for so much,and call upon them to substantiatetheir allegations and if they do not,or are unable to, substantiate them,then it would be the Members of theSocialist Front who would be exposedas purveyors of falsehood.

I feel, Sir, that, as a matter ofprinciple, when several elected Mem-bers , presumably representing theirconstituencies, persist in making seriousallegations, then it is time for theGovernment to take up the challengeand to invite them to substantiate theirallegations . If the Government doesnot do that , then, of course, one cannothelp the public forming their ownopinion it may be a right opinion orit may be a wrong opinion . But, then,let us look at what happens in othercountries. Take the case of Singapore,for example . A mere allegation thatthe Prime Minister of Singapore gavea job to his friend immediatelyresulted in a public inquiry beingordered. Take England, where somemonths ago somebody was assaultedin a police station , a constable wasconvicted in court , whereby animmediate inquiry into the treatmentof prisoners in British prisons wasordered. That is the way things shouldbe done in a democratic Government,and I note with some apprehension thereluctance of the Government in thiscountry to hold commissions ofinquiry. I think that whole attitudeshould be changed and every oppor-tunity should be taken to hold aninquiry where allegations are persistedin. At this stage I do not say whetherthese allegations are true or not. Imyself have had no opportunity ofinvestigating them and Members of theSocialist Front have not placed anyevidence before me . (Laughter).

Now in this House this morning theHonourable Minister of Finance stated

D

1177 21 JUNE 1961 1178

that he had not seen a man with suchan expression of terror as he had seenlast night on the face of HonourableMember for Bungsar. Obviously thatwas a reference to certain very seriousallegations which he made this morningand also last night against the Honour-able Member for Bungsar. It strikes methat these allegations, if true, would inthemselves be some evidence of mal-administration in the E.P.F. because ifthe E.P.F. knew that certain workerswere, to put it colloquially, swindledof $5,000, then it would have been theduty of the E.P.F., if it had beenproperly administered, to institute animmediate inquiry and bring to justicethose who were responsible for makingaway with this $5,000. As it is now,time has passed and allegations aremade at this stage in this House, andI feel that in order to be fair to every-body these allegations should berepeated also outside this House, sothat the issue will be forced and ifthe Honourable Member for Bungsardoes not take any action open to himagainst the Honourable Minister ofFinance, then the public will know thatthe allegations made by the Ministerof Finance are true. On the other hand,if he does take action and if he proveshis course of action, then the allegationswill be refuted. It appears, Mr. Speaker,Sir, a fact that these allegations weremade in this House not only yesterdaybut also today, but as to the truth orotherwise of them I do not know. ButI would appeal to you, Sir, that theseallegations having been made, theHonourable Member for Bungsarshould be given an opportunity ofclearing his name, if he could do so.

Enche' Liu Yoong Peng (Rawang):Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is surprising for usto hear from the Minister of Financethat he is quite satisfied with the run-ning of the E.P.F. In fact, he hasadmitted that there are some irregu-larities in the running of the Fund ofthe E.P.F., but he excuses the E.P.F.for the reason that he thinks that theE.P.F. has to deal with millions ofpeople. Now we know that in thebusiness world there are big insurancecompanies, big banks, etc., whichdeal with millions of people, and

if these banks and insurance com-panies had committed irregularities tothe extent, which we have now in theE.P.F., I am sure those banks andinsurance companies would have closeddown quite a long time ago becausetheir clients would have mistrustedthem. It is because the E.P.F. is not abusiness concern but a public concernthat it can afford to make thosemistakes. Therefore, the EmployeesProvident Fund can afford to makesuch mistakes, and as long as the E.P.F.has the backing of the Government,such as the Alliance Government, suchirregularities can be carried on, and itcan be quite sure that the members ofthis Fund would not be able to domuch because they are left with nochoice, because the law says that theemployer must contribute and that theemployees must contribute. Therefore,the E.P.F. can afford to rely on thatand see that the E.P.F. is not closeddown as long as we have such aGovernment, as long as we have sucha person as the Minister of Finance.

Therefore, I think that the Govern-ment should take this matter veryseriously, because unless such a publicorganisation can be as efficient as abusiness concern, then it will alwaysgive ground for people to say, "Whydo you want to have national insurancescheme by the Government, why doyou want to have Government-sponsored corporations, why don't youleave things to business concerns andprivate enterprises?" and this I thinkis not good for all.

The Minister of Internal Securityand Minister of the Interior (Dato'Dr. Ismail) : Mr. Speaker, Sir, I feelthat I cannot let the observations madeby the Honourable Member fromMenglembu pass without some com-ment, because he struck a note on thefundamental fact of parliamentarydemocracy at work, because we on thisside of the Government always prideourselves that we want to upholdparliamentary democracy and we willheed whatever opinion expressed in thisHouse, subject of course to certainconditions. For parliamentary demo-cracy to function, the Government and

1179 21 JUNE 1961

the Opposition must have equal respon-sibilities for what they say in this Houseand what they bring to this House. Now,to say that for every grievance broughtto this House by Honourable Membersthe Government must set up a Com-mittee of Inquiry or a Commission ofInquiry is to oversimplify matters.

Let us take, as an example, themotion before the House. If the Hon-ourable Member for Menglembu willread it carefully, the motion says that"This House expresses grave concernover the mal-administration of theEmployees Provident Fund .. ". Now,Sir, the word "mat-administration" is avery strong word to be used, especiallywhen we have heard the speech madeby the Honourable Member for Bung-sar. All that he has put up to theHouse are minor irregularities. If thereare minor irregularities the Ministerof Finance has so admitted naturallythe Government would look into thematter. However, it is a very differentmatter to bring this question of irre-gularities and another matter to blamethe Employees Provident Fund forhaving committed a mal-administrationin its work. We, on the Governmentside, will welcome constructive criti-cisms from the Opposition Members,but they must be constructive ones andthey must not be trying to discreditthe Government, or to discredit thePublic Service, or Civil Service of thiscountry for the sake of doing so. Ifthere are irregularities, as the Honour-able the Minister has said, the Govern-ment will willingly look into the matter,but irregularity and mal-administrationare two entirely different things alto-gether. I want to make it clear to theMembers of the Opposition that we inthis House want to make democracywork and that we are willing to enter-tain any grievances by the HonourableMembers, but they must not be over-exaggerated and must not make amockery of the democracy in thiscountry. (Applause).

Enche' V. David : Mr. Speaker, Sir,the Honourable the Minister ofFinance, entirely leaving aside thesubject before the House, went on tomention the bringing up of myself andmy family.

1180 K

Mr. Speaker: Before you proceed onthat question, I would like to say thatI have already ruled him out, but un-fortunately it has already been said bythe Minister himself -a very seriousallegation against you. I ruled that outafter I heard it, and it was heard byHonourable Members in this Chamberlast night. I am now giving you achance to explain if you want to.

Enche' V. David : Mr. Speaker, Sir,even after the Chair had ruled it out,it will be in the records of this House.

Mr. Speaker: I am giving you achance to explain because of that.

Enche ' V. David: First of all, I mustremind the Honourable the Ministerthat I was not brought up in the sameway as he was brought up. I was bornpoor no doubt, but I was brought upin a respectful manner not to cheatand exploit the weak ones as he hasdone and traditionally his family hasdone. Sir, in this country if you wantto know the biggest exploiter of small-holders, it is nobody other than theMinister of Finance himself.

Mr. Speaker: I rule that out. I onlygive you a chance to explain theserious allegations made by theMinister last night.

Enche' V. David: Mr. Speaker, Sir,the Minister went on to say aboutthe Factory and General WorkersUnion. The Factory and GeneralWorkers Union was composed ofofficers who were not considered asemployees but were willing to do workand to dedicate themselves for the up-bringing of this organisation, and allof them did not want to be employees;some of them were voluntary workers,some of them were part-time workers,receiving a certain amount of subsis-tence allowance. Ever since theinception of this organisation, it grewand in the end of 1957 the Governmentdid say that even Trade Unions shouldcontribute towards the EmployeesProvident Fund, and this was a shockto the Committee of this organisation.This organisation at that time did nothave enough money to pay to theEmployees Provident Fund as reques-

1181 21 JUNE 1961 1182

ted by E.P.F. Board the arrearsfrom its inception. However, since theEmployees Provident Fund Departmenthad made it clear that the organisationshould pay the arrears, the Committeeafter discussion agreed to pay theamount in instalments. It paid part ofthe amount as a first instalment andbefore it could pay the second instal-ment, the Honourable the Minister ofLabour then, who is now the Ministerof Health and Social Welfare, bannedthe Union for activities which heconstrued as subversive.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, there was noattempt by anybody or members of theCommittee to cheat the Government,and I myself was not an employer. Iwas one of the officers and anemployee of the organisation. I myself,if at all the organisation contributed tothe E.P.F., would be entitled to $750.Sir, we the officers of the Union didnot want this money; we wanted theorganisation; we placed the organisa-tion before individuals; and thereforethe false allegation made by theHonourable the Minister is untrue andunfounded. He evaded the issue whichwas under discussion and made apersonal allegation bringing up anissue which was irrelevant just tohoodwink, deceive and mislead thepublic.

Mr. Speaker, Six, I also call upon theMinister, who has made these allega-tions here to repeat the same outsidethis House in an open rally. If hewould do this, it could offer me awonderful opportunity to take him totask.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in this House webring up matters of public importance.The Minister went on to say that theofficers in the Employees' ProvidentFund Department had been verycourteous. Personally, Sir, I havenothing against the officers. I have verygood friends among the senior officersin the Department who have been veryhelpful and, I hope they will continueto be helpful. But that does not solvethe problem which is today prevailingin the Department. We are concernedwith thousands of workers, the under-privileged, the illiterates, who are

unable to obtain their money imme-diately on their request. This is whatI am trying to stress in this House;it is not myself or my colleagues, whoknow at least a bit of the law to gothrough the proper procedure to obtainthe money.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister didsay that I moved this motion withouthaving any sense of public duty andthat I did it just for cheap publicity.Sir, my colleagues and I in this Househave got wonderful opportunities toobtain publicity outside this Chamber.We hold frequent public rallies and weusually invite Ministers to opendebates we do not run away from ourconstituencies but we stick to our con-stituencies, unlike the Minister ofFinance who ran away from Malacca,leaving his own constituency, fearingthe Member for Bandar Malacca, whois not here at the moment, and goingto a constituency where Malays arepreponderant; perhaps, he was afraidto face the Chinese population. Mr.Speaker, Sir, a man who has been livingthere for years is unable to face thepeople of Malacca, because they knowhow dirty he is ... .

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Withdraw !withdraw !

Mr. Speaker: Order, order.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS : Shut up !

Enche' V. David: You shut up !

Mr. Speaker : Order, order ! Honour-able Members should give this Housethe due respect. (To Enche' V. David)Will you withdraw the word "dirty"?

Enche ' V. David : Yes Sir, at thesame time, the words "Shut up" shouldbe withdrawn.

Mr. Speaker: I will not allow any-body to continue like this. If anybodydisobeys my order I have a remedy forit. I will ask the Honourable Membersconcerned to withdraw from the Cham-ber and they will be suspended. I havegot to be firm on this from now on.

Enche ' Tan Siew Sin : Mr. Speaker,Sir, on a point of clarification, theHonourable Member has made the

1183 21 JUNE 1961 1184

charge that I ran away it is completelyuntrue.

Enche' V. David : Sir, I refuse togive way.

Enche' Tan Slew Sin : Sir, he did notgive me a chance to explain.

Mr. Speaker : (To Enche' V. David)Will you confine your reply toarguments put up by the Governmentside. I am not going to allow furtherthan that.

Enche' V. David: He also stated thatthe Union did not pay up the $5,000.Sir, the Union did not make anydeduction at any time from the officers'remuneration. It only realised that ithad to pay at a later stage it wasprepared to pay back the arrears fromits inception by instalments. Sir, therewas no deduction made and theMinister's allegation that deduction wasmade and the money was not paid in isuntrue and unfounded and it is mis-leading the House and the public. Thepeople of this country are not so stupidas one would think. They possess vastknowledge, and may be better know-ledge than people sitting in this Houseand they know what is true and whatis untrue. (Laughter).

Mr. Speaker, Sir, coming to theSuspense Account, last night theMinister did say that the SuspenseAccount does have a certain amount ofmoney and that it would take time tocredit the various contributors' accounts.Sir, when an amount of money isplaced under the Suspense Account, aslong as the money remains in theSuspense Account the contributors donot receive any interest at all thatmeans for the fault and inefficiency ofthe Department, the contributors haveto lose their interest.

Again, when I mentioned about theintruder, he did say that no such thinghad happened. It is for the police toinvestigate, Sir, I am not going to dwellon that. Further, he also accusedcertain staffs there, because I hadmanaged to extract or obtain certaininformation. Sir, whether I extractedinformation from junior staffs or itmay be from the Minister's own office,

or it may be from the Minister'shouse if those facts are correct theyhave to be accepted. All the file num-bers and queries made by me, one byone, have not been refuted by theMinister. He merely evaded the issuecompletely, making personal insinua-tions without any foundation all thequeries raised by me in this House werenot replied to at all.

Sir, coming to the composition of theBoard, which is running the affairs ofthe Employees' Provident Fund, Iwould say that the Board at the momentis not properly constituted, because theMinister shows just the same arroganceto the Malayan Trade Union Congressof this country which is supposed to bethe only body representing the workersin this country and they have notaccepted nomination because of thearrogance of the Honourable Minister.Today the workers' representation onthis Board is lacking. Therefore, Icannot admit that workers are fullyrepresented in the Employees' ProvidentFund Board.

The other Honourable Member forPahang has stated that if we do notwant the Employees' Provident Fundlegislation, then we can move a motionin this House to repeal the legislation.Sir, no mention at all was made by mein this House, or by my colleagues,that the legislation should be repealed,but we only propose amendment to thelegislation. We want the Employees'Provident Fund Ordinance, and theworkers want it. The Malayan TradeUnion Congress was the prime moverof this in 1952, as a result of whichthe then colonial Government enactedthe Employees' Provident Fund legis-lation. We have not said at any timethat we want to repeal this legislation.We only ask that the Employees'Provident Fund money should beoperated in a proper manner that willgive an opportunity to the contributorsto withdraw their contributions withoutred tape if they desire to do so, so longas they can comply with the provi-sions of the Employees' ProvidentFund.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, as far as my con-tentions are concerned, there are many

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irregularities leading to mal-administra-tion in the Employees' Provident FundDepartment, and they need immediaterectification. Therefore, I submit thatthis motion is extremely necessary torestore the confidence of the people ofthis country in the Employees' Provi-dent Fund Department. Thank you.

Question put, and negatived.

ANGGEREK KINTA DI-JADIKANBUNGA KEBANGSAAN

Che' Khadijah binti Mohd. Sidek(Dungan): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-sini saya membawa satu usul yangberbunyi :

"Bahawa Majlis ini menetapkan is-itubunga Kebangsaan Persekutuan TanahMelayu hendak-lah di-tukar kapada bungaAnggerek Kinta."

Saya mengemukakan chadangan ini,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-dalam Dewanyang berbahagia ini dengan alasan2 ia-itu saga mempunyai pendapat bahawabunga ini ada-lah satu bunga atau satuBenda yang boleh menjadikan lambangbagi manusia. Kerana dari zamandahulu kala is-itu zaman Mesir sampaimembawa ka-zaman Unani danRumawi maka bunga itu di-pakai sa-bagai jalinan hidup manusia is-itudi-dalam gembira bagitu juga untokmenunjokkan sa-bagai lambang sa-suatubangsa yang di-ertikan bahawa bungaKebangsaan itu ada-lah di-ibaratkankesuchian keperibadian dan ketegohanjiwa raga dari satu2 bangsa atau negara.Oleh sebab itu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,di-sini saya mengemukakan bahawabunga Kebangsaan kita di-dalam TanahMelayu ini yang telah di-tetapkan olehKerajaan pada hari ini is-itu BungaRaya. Dan di-dalam chadangan saya,saya minta supaya Bunga Raya itudi-tukarkan kapada bunga AnggerekKinta. Kerana jika kita hendak mene-tapkan sa-suatu lambang daripadabangsa atau negara negeri itu sa-bagaimana saya telah terangkan, lam-bang itu hendak-lah menunjokkanbukan sahaja kekuatan jiwa ragadaripada bangsa dan negara-nya.Maka di-sini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,kita harus menilek kapada duadasar. Yang pertama, dari mana ke-aslian-nya, bagi kita yang menjadikan

lambang itu. Sa-boleh2-nya hendak-lahbunga itu berasal dari Tanah Melayusendiri. Yang kedua, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, hendak-lah kita tilek kapadanilai harga yang akan boleh memberi-kan kebanggaan kapada masharakatkhas-nya dan dunia `am-nya. Maka di-sin1, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, menilekpenyelidekan saya bahawa sudah sa-patut-nya-lah bunga Anggerek Kintaini kita jadikan bunga Kebangsaan kitadi-sini kerana menilek pendapat pakar2daripada bunga, bahawa AnggerekKinta ini atau orchid itu ada-lah tum-boh-nya atau asal-nya bukan daripadanegeri yang berhawa iklim yang sejok,tetapi ada-lah daripada negeri yang ber-iklim panas. Dan kedapatan di-dalamhutan belantara; yang banyak ke-dapatan hutan2 itu ada-lah di-dalamnegeri kita Tanah Melayu.

Kinta is-itu lembahan Kinta dalamPersekutuan Tanah Melayu yang ter-letak nun di-negeri Perak, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, dan Anggerek Kinta ini ada-lah sejati daripada lembahan Kinta,is-itu satu tumbohan2 yang berupa sa-bagai satu tanaman rumput, daun-nyahalus2 dan berbunga. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Anggerek Kinta ini telah di-ketahui oleh dunia luar bangsa2 Baratis-itu 200 tahun yang telah lalu keranakechantekan-nya dan kemegahan-nya,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sifat2 yang ter-sebut ada di-punyai oleh AnggerekKinta ini oleh sebab itu-lah maka ter-tarek peminat2 penchinta bunga di-dunia barat sa-hingga mereka datangka-negeri2 yang berhawa panas is-itunegeri kita ini buat menyelidek di-dalamhutan2 belantara di-lembah2 sa-hinggamereka dapati bunga2 ini; dan salahsa-orang penyelidek yang terkenal ia-itu Mahaguru di-dalam siasat per-usahaan untok menyelidek tumbohan2yang bernama Mr. William Broker, ia-lah yang mula2 dapat bunga AnggerekKinta ini di-lembahan Kinta, TuanYang di-Pertua, dengan berbagai2 charadi-pelihara-nya dengan chara baik.Maka kerana banyak sahabat2 handaiyang di-beri-nya Anggerek Kinta inidan mereka juga mengambil perhatianbesar serta memelihara Anggerek Kintaini dan meminati dengan sesunggoh2-nya maka Anggerek Kinta ini di-berinama oleh mereka itu dengan nama

1187 21 JUNE 196 1

Vanda Hookariana, sebab, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, Vanda : erti-nya orchid, dandalam bahasa Latin Hookeriana ituada-lah nama daripada orang yangmenyelidek yang pertama sa-kali men-dapat bunga mi. Menurut pendapatorang yang menyelidek bunga inibahawa dengan kekayaan alam tanahayer kita ini tidak kurang daripada duaribu jenis bunga Anggerek Kinta ini;Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan untok men-dapat kechantekan dan kemolekan dari-pada bunga Anggerek Kinta ini makadari pakar2 atau dari peminat2 bungaAnggerek Kinta ini di-adakan-nya-lahis-itu untok merubah warna bunga ataumerubah bentok bunga itu supayabunga itu lebeh besar nilai-nya daripadayang biasa, maka di-adakan per-usahaan2 untok mengkahwinkan bunga2itu sa-hingga dapat bunga2 yang lebehchantek lagi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.Bunga Anggerek Kinta ini telah di-ke-tahu dari zaman dahulu kala sa-bagai-mana yang saya katakan tali kerana,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dari sate bukubernama Sejara;h Melayu telah dapatkita bacha satu peribahasa yangberbunyi :

Anggerek pun mengilaiDelima tersenyumDan bunga mawar berpantun

Dari zaman dahulu kala lagi kita telahdapat bunga Anggerek ini dan di-kenaloleh orange tua kita.

Dan menurut keterangan salah sa-orang penchinta Anggerek atau salahsa-orang pakar daripada tumboh2anyang bernama Tuan T. C. Gek bekaskepala kebun raya di-Maison yangmengatakan bahawa ada-lah bangsaAnggerek ini yang bernama bungaPadang Ngo. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ismengatakan bahawa Padang Ngo is-itusa-orang pengukir emas tidak dapatmengukir bagaimana kesenian danbentok daripada Anggerek yang di-kata-kan itu. Bagitu-lah kesenian dan peri-badi yang terselit dalam bunga Ang-gerek ini yang sangat mempunyainilaian yang tinggi.

Di-sini saya ada membawa bungaAnggerek ini emak-nya yang sejatiis-itu bunga Anggerek Kinta, TuanYang di-Pertua. (Ketawa) (di-sampok).Dan ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ada-lah

1188

anak-nya yang terlahir daripada emakbunga Anggerek ini, dan saya minta,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, supaya saudara2yang lain itu bersifat dengan secharatertib.

Mr. Speaker : Proceed!

Che'. Khadijah: Sebab, ini sayabukan mencheritakan soal perkahwinanyang boleh di-ketawakan, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, kerana ini soal . . . . (di-sampok).

Mr. Speaker : Order ! order !

Che' Khadijah : Soal harga nilaiandaripada bunga ini, jadi bunga VandaHookeriana itu di-kahwinkan oleh sa-orang yang bernama Miss Joaquimis-itu dengan satu bangsa Vanda Parisyang berasal dari Burma. Jadi bungadari Malaya ini di-kahwinkan denganbunga Anggerek dari Burma, maka ter-lahir-lah ini yang bernama Joaquim.

Baharu2 ini is-itu bunga yang di-bawa dari bunga yang besar ber-bentek2 yang di-atas-nya kechil puteh,tetapi apakala sudah di-kahwinkanmaka bunga ini menjadi lebeh bagusdan berharga dengan nilaian yangtinggi dari segi perniagaan, dan ini-lahyang membawa ketinggian pereko-nomian juga memperbaiki keadaannasib ra`ayat kita dalam Tanah Melayumi. Dan sa-bagai bunga Anggerek dari-pada tanah ayer kita ini TanahMelayu yang telah di-bawa ka-negeribarat is-itu ka-Eropah dan di-situ men-dapat penghargaan yang sangat tinggi.Maka kalau sa-suatu barang, sa-suatutumbohan yang biasa tumboh di-negeripanas di-bawa masok ka-negeri Eropahyang negeri-nya berhawa sejok, alang-kah besar modal-nya untok di-pakai,di-hidupkan supaya tumbohan itu dapathidup sa-bagaimana hidup-nya yangsubor daripada tempat is sendiri.Berapa banyak duit yang akan di-chu-rahkan untok membuat tempat, untokmenjaga penghidupan bunga Anggerekini sa-bagaimana di-Eropah merekamembuat tempat2 yang besar yangdi-buat daripada kacha atau atapkacha dinding kacha dan di-dalam-nya di-masokkan paip letrek supayamemanaskan bunga tumboh2an itu agariklim yang ada di-dalam tempat itusama keadaan-nya dengan iklim tempat

1189 21 JUNE 1961 1190

datang-nya bunga itu. Alang-kah besar-nya penghargaan bangsa Eropah ter-hadap bunga2 terutama Anggerek yangberasal dari tanah ayer kita ini TanahMelayu. Ini-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,penghargaan yang sangat tinggi dari-pada bunga Anggerek yang di-beri olehbangsa2 di-dunia ini. Sa-bagaimanayang kita ketahui terutama dalamsurat2 khabar, bunga Anggerek ini di-pelihara oleh peminat2 di-seluroh negeridalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu danjuga di-Singapura, maka pakar2 dari-pada bunga Anggerek di-dunia ini telahmengadakan pamiran2 atau mengadakanpertunjokan dari bunga2 Anggerek inidari seluroh dunia dan dalam pamiran2itu, pakar2 daripada bunga mengadakanatau memberikan nilaian2-nya sertamenjadi jury di-situ dan pads tahun1954 Tanah Melayu telah mendapatsatu kemuliaan dan kebanggaan yangbesar oleh Anggerek-nya yang manatelah mendapat sijil yang pertama dari-pada Anggerek dari seluroh dunia yangbertempat di-Victoria, Australia. Dandalam tahun 1960 pula Malaya telahterkenal dengan Anggerek asli-nyadengan mendapat kemenangan yangchemerlang is-itu Pingat Emas dansijil pertama telah di-dapati oleh TanahMelayu, juga daripada pamiran2 dariseluroh dunia dalam soal bunga Ang-gerek mi. Ini sebetul-nya kali yang per-tama Tanah Melayu memileki ataumenggundol balek Bintang Emas duniabagi Anggerek-nya is-itu selama 150tahun persatuan Royal HorticulturalSociety menganjorkan pamiran bungaAnggerek-nya di-seluroh dunia yangbertempat di-Chelsea. Jadi alang-kahjauh bedza-nya jikalau kita bandingkandengan bunga ini, kerana saya chari2dalam buku2 yang khas untok me-riwayatkan sejarah Bunga Raya initidak ada, tetapi berapa banyak kitamahu soal bunga Anggerek ini ada. Di-sini ada dua buku sahaja yang kechil,tetapi ada yang besar dan yang tebal2lagi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua (Ketawa).Sebab bunga Anggerek ini ada kalausaya tidak salah 50 ribu macham yangbaharu di-dapati dalam dunia dan ber-bagai2 macham lagi nama-nya, chorak-nya, besar-nya, rupa-nya, warna-nyadan bentok-nya. Lagi pula yang patutkita megahkan pada bunga Anggerekini is-itu is tidak gugor jatoh ka-tanah.

Ia kalau sudah layu tinggal di-tangkai-nya, dan kalau sudah keying baharu isjatoh ka-tanah, tetapi sa-sudah is ke-ying dan menjadi buah maka baharu ishabis. Di-sebalek-nya pula Bunga Rayaini nama yang sebetul-nya mengikutnama yang di-kenal oleh dunia is-ituhibiscus, jadi oleh kerana itu, saya rasatidak berasal dari Tanah Melayu danBunga Raya ini kerana orang kita is-ituorang Melayu yang dato' nenek moyangkita dahulu banyak yang tidak berse-kolah, sangat susah mahu menyebutkanhibiscus itu kerana bunga ini besar,daun-nya besar serta luas, maka selalu-nya orang Melayu mengatakan yangbesar itu raya. Jadi bunga ini di-nama-kan Bunga Raya kerana bunga-nyabesar.

Mr. Speaker: Kenapa bunga yangbesar ta' di-bawa sini ? (Ketawa).

Che' Khadijah: Sebab ini (bunga)sudah kechut, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.(Ketawa). Semalam is besar (Ketawa).

Mr. Speaker: Order ! order ! Proceed.

Che' Khadijah: . . sebab BungaRaya, mithal-nya, jalan besar jalanraya, balai besar balai raya, gendangbesar gendang raya dan sa-bagai-nya,Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Jadi keranabesar-nya-lah bunga ini maka di-namakan bunga Raya. Dan, TuanYang di-Pertua, sa-tahu saya bunga inidalam Tanah Melayu ini tidak adaorang yang memelihara-nya sa-bagaimana pemeliharaan yang di-adakan untok bunga Anggerek BungaRaya liar, tumboh liar di-mana2sahaja dan kalau-lah Bunga Raya inibernasib baik, maka di-pakai orang,di-tanam orang untok penjaga rumah-nya, menjadi pagar keliling rumah.Ah ! itu-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Dansa-bagaimana yang kita lihat pada hariini Tuan Yang di-Pertua bertanyakapada saya kenapa tidak di-bawayang besar itu yang raya. Saya sa-malam bawa yang besar yang raya itu,dan ini-lah yang saya bawa sa-malam,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya me-ngingatkan usul saya keluar sa-malam,tetapi kerana masa belum mengizinkan,saya terpaksa menompangkan bungaini kapada "taukeh canteen" di-belakang sana supaya di-masokkanka-dalam "ice box".

1191 21 JUNE 1961 1192

Mr. Speaker: Jadi dia kechut ! dan negara-kemegaban kita bersama (Ketawa). jika kita pamerkan ka-luar negeri .-.~

Che' Khadijah: Layu, Tuan Yang di- kelak. Pertua. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, maka saya

Mr. Speaker: Pr ceed ~~ngusulk~n. di-sini supaya pada. h~ri 0 • m1 Dewan m1 dapat memutuskan 1a-1tu

Che' Khadijah: Jadi, Tuan Yang di- Bunga Raya, bunga Kebangsaan Per- · Pertua, ini-lah yang nyata sa-kali sekutuan Tanah Melayu, di-tukar perbezaan yang ta' dapat di-napikan. kapada bunga Anggerek Kinta. Pehak yang barangkali tidak bersetuju dengan usul saya nanti berkata: Oh! Dr. Burhanuddin bin Mohd. Noor barangkali Yang Berhormat bohong, (Besot): Tuan Yang di-P~rt.ua, saya dia bawa yang sudah layu dari rumah, bangun menyokon~ . usul 101 kerana ~~n sekar~g di-tudoh-nya Bunga Raya say~ pandan~ soal 1m soal kebangsaan 1ll1 layu-t1dak, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, (national)_ ~ita yang sudah tentu-lah saksi saya banyak di-belakang sana- perkara mt satu perkara yang besar "taukeh canteen"; jadi "taukeh" ini-lah yang akan menjadi nilaian dan ke­yang memasokkan ka-dalam "ice box" - agongan kita .. Sa-sunggoh-nya, usul ini nya, bukan .saya. Ah~ ini dia Bunga di-bawa sa-sudah sat~ . b1;1nga yang Anggerek Kmta dan mi Bunga Raya bernama Bunga Raya d1-1ad1kan bunga yang sa-malam segar, Tuan Yang kebangsaan. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-Pertua, tetapi bila kita keluarkan berhubong dengan bunga kebangsaan bunga Anggerek, dengan megah, di-m~na2 juga ~egeri. dalam dunia ini dengan sombong maseh berdiri segar. mestt mengambtl danpada satu bunga Tetapi, alang-kah sedeh-nya ! bunga yang asli, yang tumboh di-ibu pertiwi Kebangsaan Tanah Melayu yang itu sendiri yang mengandongi seni yang ~enjadi ~ambang kesuchian keperiba- menasab~h dan tep!it bagi sa-su~tu ~ d1an danpada bangsa kita telah layu ~angsa 1tu. Sa-baga1mana yang kita terkulai dan kering di-atas. Wahai!, hhat bangsa Jepun ada satu bunga Tuan Yang di-Pertua (Ketawa}- bemama bunga Sakura yang ada seni­(lnterruption}-dan alang-kah sedeh- nya yang tepat dengan Fujiyama-nya, nya, alang-kah kechewa-nya kita dan itu-lah yang menjadi lambang jiwa, ~~rajaan y~ng daripada negara Melayu lambang seni bangsa itu sendiri. mt dan ra ayat yang daripada negeri M k ini jikalau sa-kira-nya pakar2 daripada . a a saya rasa dan sa-telah saya bangsa2 hendak men adakan ameran fikir bah~wa bung3: yang menasabah daripada bunga Ke~angsaan p masing2 b~na~ b~g1 menggantt bung~ kebangsaan di-sa-suatu negeri kelak. Maka di- kita 1a-1tu B~nga Raya, 1a-lah bung~ kirimkan-lah karan an Bun a Ra a Anggerek Kmta yang mengandong1 dari Tanah Melay g w h ·~ Y keadaan2, kelayakan2 yang tepat benar u. a ai . negara b · · a· b k b . . Melayu, dan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ag1 men1a I unga e angsaan im. ala~g-kah sedeh-nya bila di-tur.~kan Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bunga Ang­dan kapal terbang maka ba~1m-lah gerek Kinta ini keindahan-nya ada-lah gaya-nya, Tuan Yang d1-Pertua dari sa-buah lurah (valley) yang maseh (Ketaw~) masok. ka-dalam gelai;iggang terkenal keadaan bumi-nya dalam bangsa yang kt.ta akan. pertun1okkan dunia ini sa-hingga boleh mengeluarkan kemegahan .dar1ah danpada bangs~ bijeh timah 1/3 lebeh daripada basil Melayu. ln!·lah, Tuan Yang d1- bijeh dunia, maka sudah menasabah­Pertua,-pan1ang kalau saya mahu lab keindahan Anggerek Kinta ini juga memperchakapkan · · · tumboh di-atas bumi yang kaya raya

Mr. Speaker: Pendekkan sahaja di-dunia ini. !uan .Yang di:Pe~tua, sudah-lah (Ketawa). Bung~ Ray~ ]lka ktta halus1 ttdak

sesuat dan ttdak tepat dengan kaedah-Che' Khadijah: . . . tetapi sa-chara nya sa-bagaimana yang telah saya _ ....

isi2 ini-lah. Mudah2an, saya berharap sebutkan tadi, kerana ia datang dari -­kita . bukan. ~emikirkan satu2 parti, negeri luar, dan di-tanam hanya sa­tetap1 mem1k1rkan kemegahan bangsa kadar di-hujong2 jalan, dan tidak-lah

/,

1193 21 JUNE 1961 1194

menjadi satu perhiasan yang di-megah­kan semenjak bunga ini sampai ka­tanah ayer kita.

Di-tanam hanya sa-kadar di-hujong2

dan tidak-lah menjadi satu perhiasan di­megah2kan oleh seluroh bangsa itu dan tidak menjadi satu suntingan kerana mudah sangat layu-nya, dan seni-nya tidak bagitu menarek dan lebeh2 lagi pula bunga itu ada di-pandang daripada segi seni yang di-bandingkan luchah atau menjadi ibarat kata2 orang2 Melayu kita sa-bagai bunga pelachoran._ J ika kita ambilkan bandingan Bunga Raya itu ada-lah sa-bagai bandingan bunga keladi. Bunga Raya manakala kita pandang dari jauh nampak chantek merah menarek boleh-lah orang hen­dak menyunting bunga itu, tetapi manakala di-sunting di-dapati bunga itu lembek dan kalau di-pegang chuba di-lanyak2 di-tangan mithal-nya akan keluar-lah benda kotor menghitamkan tangan.

Deniikian juga mithal-nya kalau bunga keladi dia kembang di-tengah2 kolam atau di-tengah2 paya dan nam­pak chantek kembang-nya maka sa­kira-nya sa-orang tertarek dengan keindahan bunga keladi tadi pergi-lah ia mengharorig ayer itu, kemudian manakala di-pegang maka di-dapati­nya gatal yang mengkechiwakan dia. Ada orang membandingkan bunga keladi dan Bunga Raya itu sa-bagai kupu2 malam kerana kupu2 itu ada-lah sa-jenis binatang (insect) atau satu binatan~ yang terbang rupa-nya indah. Jadi satu perkara di-kumpulkan oleh orang2 yang suka mengumpulkan binatang2 yang indah tetapi kerana binatang itu berabu yang boleh mengotorkan tangan maka keindahan­nya di-pandang bagitu sahaja, tetapi mutu-nya untok membawakan kapada keindahan itu ada-lah mengkechiwa­kan. Demikian juga-lah di-bandingkan Bunga Raya, bunga keladi dan bina­tang kupu2 malam itu ada-lah peri­bahasa yang terkenal dalam bahasa Melayu mengatakan taraf-nya sa-bagai pelachoran dan luchah. Sa-bagaimana bunyi pantun orang Melayu : Bunga Raya bunga keladi,

Dari jauh nampak tersidai, Hasrat hati penyunting budi,

Bilar di-uji tidak terpakai. (Ketawa).

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kita pandang daripada segi seni, seni daripada keaslian-nya maka kita dapati keinda­han bunga Anggerek Kinta ini ada-lah mempunyai bentok seni yang halus yang mempunyai atau mengandongi seni yang sa-olah2 pandai menyimpan malu dan menyimpan kehormatan peribadi-nya. Jika kita bandingkan dengan seni Bunga Raya kita dapati­lah bahawa tempat alat yang menjadi beneh Bunga Raya itu terjulor keluar dan binatang2 yang ganas yang berter­bangan senang sahaja hinggap. Akan tetapi manakala kita pandang kapada bunga Anggerek Kinta itu ada-lah mempunyai susunan yang sesuai dengan peribadi yang lemah lembut dan halus budi pekerti-nya dan tempat baka bunga itu bukan sahaja ter­simpan, tetapi dua kali tersimpan lagi ia-itu tempat yang paling molek sa-kali. Saya bukan-lah ahli bunga dan tidak dapat menerangkan dengan chara lanjut. Tetapi perkara itu ada­lah perkara SCientific yang boleh di­huraikan dan sudah di-huraikan dengan panjang dalam ilmu Vanda ia­itu ilmu bunga Anggerek ini. Kalau dalam Botany di-kenal dengan Vanda, mithal-nya ada lagi bunga yang lain daripada jenis Lilium Tiglinum dan Lilium Tiglinum dengan Vanda ini boleh-lah di-jadikan perbandingan. Di-pandang dari segi Biology bahawa mutu hidup pertumbohan Bunga Raya itu lebeh kurang luchu-nya daripada mutu indah hidup Biology Vanda.

Jadi dengan sebab mutu-nya lebeh tinggi maka bunga itu sanggup ber­hadapan dengan keadaan udara sejok dan udara panas dan sanggup pula tahan lama sampai 15 hari sa-sudah ia di-petek. Ia tetap mekar dan tetap ber­kembang menunjokkan keindahan-nya. Maka dengan chara yang demikian ternyata-lah bagaimana seni-nya kita katakan biasa dan seni daripada keaslian-nya, seni daripada seni kein­dahan jiwa dan rupa dan seni dari erti kesenian dan seni dari seni akhlak bahawa dalam bahagian2 seni itu ada kelayakan-nya bagi bunga Anggerek Kinta itu. Satu perkara lagi bunga Anggerek Kinta itu sanggup chaFa hidup-nya melayakkan diri-nya di-bawa ka-tengah2 majlis yang sa-besar2-nya

1195 21 JUNE 1961 1196

dalam dunia ini dan Anggerek sudahpun mendapat bintang emas masapertunj okan International di-Englandtahun 1960, saya juga dapat peluanghadhir pada masa itu yang Malayadapat bintang emas. Dan jika di-ketepikan mithal-nya dengan sebabpokok itu terletak di-hutan atau puntertinggal tidak di-layan dia tetap jugabangga di-antara pokok2 di-keliling-nya, dia tetap juga di-hormati olehpokok2 yang lain, sa-kali pun pokok2yang mati bahawa pokok AnggerekKinta ini akan membalut pokok2 yangmati itu membawa sari hidup-nyakembali.

Ini-lah kelebehan di-tempat yangsepi, di-tempat yang ketinggalanmithal-nya. Kalau kita lihat di-KintaValley ya`ani di-jajahan Kinta yangma`amur, mewah dengan kekayaanbijeh dan kekayaan bumi-nya itu sapertinama yang di-katakan pokok bungaAnggerek mi. Ia tumboh di-taman.2Orange yang terkemuka yang chintakankesenian Vanda seni Anggerek istumboh sendir di-kampong, di-huj ong2kampong, di-hutan2, di-pinggir2 gu-nong, di-tepi2 sungai, di-paya2 danjuga di-redang yang kita akan dapatimithal-nya di-sana ada sa-jenis pokokbakong. Bakong ada-lah sa-jenis pokokyang berbunga sendiri dalam ayerdalam redang dan manakala benehbunga Anggerek ini tumboh dalampaya, maka is pula mengambil baha-gian sama menyerikan keadaan paya,lurah2 di-situ di-mana is akan tumbohdengan subor-nya mempamirkanbunga2 Anggerek yang endah dalampaya2 itu. Ini ada-lah menunjokkanbagaimana peribadi bunga Anggerekini mempunyai kelayakan yang tepatsa-kali bagi menj adi bunga kebangsaankita, kerana keaslian dan nature-nyadi-bawa ka-tengah, ka-tepi denganmempunyai layak yang tepat sa-kalidi-samping mempunyai mutu dannilaian yang tinggi.

Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, denganketerangan yang ringkas ini, saya rasamemadai-lah boleh kita lanjutkan lagidengan chara scientific, dengan charasegi botany dan biology yang kitadapati bagaimana layak dan keindahan-

nya yang tepat tentang bunga AnggerekKinta ini di-j adikan sa-bagai bungakebangsaan.

Satu perkara lagi, sa-sudah kitahendak merdeka hari itu macham2pendapat ahli2 fikir yang berkehendak-kan mereka lagu kebangsaan. Ini ada-lah satu perkara yang besar yang ber-kenaan juga dengan kebangsaan. Kitatelah mendengar bagaimana fikiran2ra`ayat negeri ini memikirkan lagukebangsaan akhir-nya kerana ada satulagu kebangsaan yang sudah pun di-pakai dalam sa-buah Negeri dalamTanah Melayu ini is-itu Lagu Kebang-saan Perak. Maka sudah-lah denganpersetujuan Perak, seni lagu yang di-ambil daripada lagu negeri Perak danmanakala kita memikirkan perkara ini,dan saya sa-benar-nya tidak pula ter-lintas di-hati hanya sa-masa sayaberdiri ini sahaja tentang perkara lagukebangsaan ini tadi yang mana sesuaipula dengan dudok-nya negeriPerak Kinta itu dalam negeri Perak,maka menasabah-lah bahawa bungakebangsaan itu di-tapak ambilankeaslian-nya juga berdasarkan di-atasbumi Kinta dalam negeri Perak itujuga dan sa-bagaimana dasar lagukebangsaan kita yang telah kitatetapkan itu.

Mr. Speaker: Saya kemukakan usulini bagi di-bahath.

Enche' Ibrahim bin Abdul Rahman(Seberang Tengah): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya bangun ada-Iah membang-kang usul mi. Saya berchakap di-sinibukan-lah sa-bagai sa-orang ahli bota-nist, atau sa-orang ahli yang pakar ber-kenaan dengan pokok, atau bungatetapi dari segi philosophy atau psycho-logy yang patut di-jadikan bandinganbunga kebangsaan ini. Sunggoh chantekdan sunggoh elok kalau kita pandangbunga Anggerek yang di-bawa olehAhli Yang Berhormat itu, tetapi kitatahu bunga Anggerek atau pun bungaOrchid itu ada-lah satu jenis yang kitakatakan "parasite" yang tumboh di-ataspokok yang lain atau is terpaksa tum-boh di-atas pokok yang hidup. Di-sinisaya suka bachakan berkenaan denganbunga Anggerek saperti mana pendapat

1197 2 1 JUNE 1961

ahli botanist dan juga dani segi almiahyang mengatakan :

Betapa hati takkan pilu, bila bungamulai mekar, memperlihatkan wajah-nya nanrupawan.

Kira-nya, tidal berlebehan, kalau bungaAnggerek di-tempatkan dalam chatatan bukukenangan hidup, sa-bagai lambang asmara-dahana teruna.

mi ada-lah bunga Anggerek yangmenunjokkan sa-bagai chinta berahi-nya.

Bunga Anggerek yang memilikianeka-warna itu, nyata-lah kesuchian-nya bukan di-sebabkan warna-nya,tetapi kerana darjat-nya di-matapengertian chinta.

Dalam kesusasteraan dunia, bungaAnggerek menepati pengertian yangistimewa untok menggambarkan ketu-lusan chinta berahi antara prig danwanita.

Jadi, Ahli Yang Berhormat pembawausul ini ada mengatakan bahawa bungaAnggerek ini telah pun di-puji dan di-puja bukan sahaja oleh pendudok,dalam Persekutuan Tanah Melayu,tetapi juga di-puji oleh seluroh manusiadalam dunia ini terutama di-barat sa-hingga di-gunakan dalam tempat yangtertutup yang di-perbuat daripadakacha. Tetapi kasehan Bunga Raya !Memang Bunga Raya hidup-nya di-tepijalan sahaja sa-bagaimana yang kitatelah mendengar pantun dahulu :

Wahai nasib-mu si-Bunga Raya,Hidup-mu di-tepi jalan sahaja,Tidak pernah di-atas meja.

Maka oleh sebab itu, patut-lah padahari ini bunga yang telah hidup di-tepijalan yang telah menjadi pagar di-kebun bunga yang endah itu di-jadikanbunga kebangsaan.

Bunga Raya jikalau kita lihat is adalima kelopak is-itu menunjokkanpancha-indera. Pancha itu ma`ana-nyalima. Penglihatan; pendengaran; pen-chiuman; perasaan dan penjabatan. Dankalau kita. liha.t, bunga ini j uga adainstinct is-itu nature instinct, makad.engan ini patut-lah kita uchapkanterima kaseh kapada Yang Amat Ber-hormat Perdana Menteni yang telahmenjadikan Bunga Raya ini sa-bagaibunga kebangsaan.

1198

Kerana Bunga Raya, sa-lain dari-pada hidup-nya di-tepi jalan, boleh-fahdi-bandingkan dengan PersekutuanTanah Melayu sa-belum merdeka da-hulu. Persekutuan Tanah Melayu sa-belum merdeka dahulu sa-bagaimanayang kita tahu, di-kenali oleh duniasa-bagai satu tempat persinggahanorang lalu lalang di-antara Timordengan Banat. Yang terkenal is-lahSingapura; Persekutuan Tanah Melayudi-pandang hanya tempat persinggahansahaja boleh-lah di-katakan hina, hinasaperti Bunga Raya. Tetapi pada hariini Persekutuan Tanah Melayu telahmenchapai kemerdeka.an nama-nya telahpun terkenal di-seluroh dunia; sapertijuga Bunga Raya yang hanya untokmenjadi pagan pada masa dahulu, hariini Bunga Raya di-tempatkan di-tempat2yang istimewa saperti di-JamuanNegara, dan di-tempat2 yang mulia.

Dan lagi, sa-bagaimana yang kitatahu bunga kebangsaan itu is-lah BungaRaya merah, dan bunga ini ada ben-bagai2 jenis saperti puteh, kuning danmerah, tetapi yang merah itu pun adaberbagai2 jenis. Yang di-pileh is-lahBunga Raya, sa-bagaimana yang sayaterangkan tadi. Saya tidak adabawa . . .

Puan Hajjah Zain binti Sulaiman(Pontian Selatan): Ada. (Ketawa).

Enche' Ibrahim: . . . ada lima ke-lopak yang menunjokkan ada limapancha-indera . .

Mr, Speaker: Order! Jangan tunjok(kapada Hajjah Zain) sa-macham itumasa orang tengah berchakap. Majlisini saya yang mengawal-nya. Pleaseproceed!

Enche ' Ibrahim: . . . bunga yangdi-pileh is-lah bunga yang merah :merah menunjokkan keberania.n, danBunga Raya ini kalau kita lihat ta'pernah is kembang menengadah ka-langit, tetapi is kembang melambai2.Jadi sunggoh pun is berani denganwarna-nya yang merah itu, tetapi ismegah, bangga dan sentiasa bersabar.

Akhir-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,saya mengatakan is-itu bunga Angge-rek ta' patut-fah di-jadikan bungakebangsaan, dengan keterangan2 danalasan2 saga tadi. Dan lagi saya suka

1199 21 JUNE 1961

bachakan apa-kah kesudahan pendapatpenulis ini berkenaan dengan bungaAnggerek, is-itu "Apa-kah tidak adabunga lain yang patut di-sejajarkandengan bunga Anggerek? Bagi penulis,mithal-nya, tidak ada punya erti lainyang patut di-ertikan sa-bagai lambangasmara-dahana." Saya anggap bungaAnggerek ada-fah satu bunga yang me-nunjokkan chinta berahi. Dan BungaRaya yang menjadi bunga kebangsaanini ada-lah yang sa-patut2 dan yang sa-mulia2 bunga. (Tepok).

Enche' Hanafi bin Mohd. Yunus(Kulim Utara): Tuan Yang di-Pertua,yang pertama sa-kali, saya menguchap-kan shukur kapada Tuhan kerana usulini telah di-tanggohkan beberapa bulan,maka dalam masa itu saya dapat me-nyiasat keadaan bunga Anggerek, yangmana saya belum pernah dengar lagi,tambahan pula di-hujong-nya di-tambah"Kinta". Lebeh2 lagi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya menguchapkan banyakterima kaseh kapada Yang Berhormatdari Dungun yang membawa chadanganini, yang mana telah mengulas danmemberi saya faham tentang bungaAnggerek dan juga di-sokong olehAhli2 Yang Berhormat daripada sa-belah sana. Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,dengan alasan2 dan penjelasan itubaharu-lah saya dapat tahu is-itu sa-macham itu yang di-namakan bungaAnggerek Kinta.

Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sayabangun membangkang usul yang di-bawa oleh Yang Berhormat dari.Dungun yang menchadangkan, is-itubunga Anggerek Kinta di-jadikanbunga kebangsaan, menggantikanBunga Raya, bunga kebangsaan kitayang ada sekarang mi.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saperti yangsaya katakan tadi ini-lah yang pertamakali saya mendengar nama bungaAnggerek Kinta, dan saya perchayabanyak lagi Ahli2 Yang Berhormatyang tidak mengetahul saperti saya.Tuan Yang di-Pertua, orang di-negeriKedah biasa mendengar dan kenalbunga Anggerek itu, tetapi ta' ada"Kinta" di-hujong-nya. Bunga Ang-gerek ini kerap di-panggil dalam negeriKedah satu jenis bunga yang hidupmenompang di-pohon mati dan di-

1200 0

pohon yang repot, is-itu satu daun yangpanjang2 dan bunga-nya puteh. Ini-lahyang di-panggil bunga Anggerek. Tetapikasehan ! , Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bungaAnggerek ini sa-kira-nya datang anginyang kuat maka gugor-lah is ka-bumf,kerana ia-menompang sahaja, is tidakdapat kemerdekaan yang penoh sebabis menompang kapada orang lain. Jadihidup-nya sama-lah saperti "menaluatau jejawi", Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, memileh bu-nga sa-bagai bunga kebangsaan iniis-lah untok di-jadikan lambang negarakita yang merdeka ini, maka bukan-lahkita dapat memileh sa-barang bungasaperti mana yang di-chadangkan olehYang Berhormat dari Dungun, walaupun segala alasan-nya itu menunj okkanbunga Anggerek Kinta itu nampakchomel, chantek, tetapi pada pendapatsaya tidak-lah tepat yang kita hendakjadikan bunga itu bunga kebangsaanatau lambang negara kita sekarang mi.Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sekarang ini kitatelah ada bunga lambang negara ataupun bunga kebangsaan is-itu BungaRaya merah. Bunga Raya ini, TuanYang di-Pertua, sa-bagaimana yang di-terangkan oleh sahabat saya tadi is adamacham2 warna, maka kita sekarangini men jadikan lambang atau bungakebangsaan itu is-lah Bunga Rayamerah. Jadi, barangkali, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, semua orang faham dan YangBerhormat penchadang tahu awal2 danmula2 lagi kita telah tahu ma`anaBunga Raya. Jadi, ma`ana "Raya"besar. Tidak ada manusia yang tidakmahu besar (Ketawa)--barangkali adasatu atau dua perkara ... . (Ketawa)sahaja yang tidak di-sukai.

Oleh itu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, padafikiran saya sangat-fah tepat dan balkyang kita telah menetapkan BungaRaya itu menjadi lambang atau bungakebangsaan negara kita.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya suka-lahmendzahirkan rasa hati saya sebabsaya fikir sangat-lah molek dan kenapada tempat-nya kita jadikan BungaRaya itu sa-bagai bunga kebangsaannegara kita ini. Tuan Yang di-Pertua,Bunga Raya ada-lah sa-jenis bungayang sangat mashhor dan terkenal sa-hinggakan kanak2 yang dudok main

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tempurong itu pun tahu memanggilBunga Raya itu. Tetapi bunga Ang-gerek itu baharu saya dengar, BungaRaya ini ada-lah terdapat di-kampong2orange Melayu dan di-jadikan pagarbuat pertahanan kampong halaman.Jadi saya fikir memang-lah sangatsesuai kita jadikan is Bunga Kebang-saan sa-olah2 menjadi pahlawan yangchukup gagah berani buat menjagakampong halaman kita.

Sa-lain daripada itu Bunga Rayaitu boleh juga di-buat mengilatkansepatu dan, batang-nya boleh di-buatberus gigi. (Ketawa). Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya tidak dapat hendak me-nyokong chadangan Yang Berhormatdari Dungun membawa usul itu denganmengkesahkan chantek-nya bungaAnggerek itu sa-olah2 bunga Anggerekyang hendak di-jadikan Bunga kebang-saan itu sa-bagai gadis yang chantekmolek, akan tetapi kita di-sini hendakmenjadikan lambang negara is-lahhendak menchari sa-orang pahlawanyang gagah perkasa. (Ketawa).

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya tidakdapat menyokong chadangan YangBerhormat dari Dungun yang mem-bawa usul supaya bunga Anggerekmenggantikan tempat Bunga Rayasa-bagai bunga lambang kebangsaankita. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Ahli YangBerhormat dari Dungun itu salah.Kalau sa-kira-nya Ahli Yang Ber-hormat menchadangkan Bunga Ang-gerek yang di-rayu2kan-nya itu menjadilambang perchintaan atau pun lambangasmara tetap saya akan menyokong-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. (Ketawa).

Dr. Lim Swee Aim (Larut Selatan):Mr. Speaker, Sir, had the motion been"that the national flower should bean orchid", it would have received mysympathy. However, I do not knowwhy the Honourable mover shouldhave chosen "Anggerek Kinta". Thosewho know orchids, those who readbooks on orchids, will know that Ang-gerek Kinta is the Vanda Hookeriana,but to the general public, if youask anybody in Kuala Lumpur, forexample, what is Anggerek Kinta, thefirst answer will be, "Oh, yes, that isthe orchid which you see growing upin the Cameron Highlands on the road-

side." In fact, those of us in Perakwho know orchids the rest of Malayaapparently do not know what orchidsare in Perak know that that AnggerekKinta is the "Tapah Weed", or, togive it its proper name, it is "ArundinaBambusifolia". So, there is always con-fusion as to what is "Tapah Weed"and what is "Kinta Weed" which isAnggerek Tapah and which is Ang-gerek Kinta. Only connoisseurs oforchids will be able to tell the difference.

The Honourable mover has spenta lot of time in praising the qualitiesof orchids, and I quite agree with herthat orchids are lovely flowers whichthough tropical could stand the coldand they do not shrink in the coldin fact they stand out more in thecold (Laughter). The Honourablemover has forgotten to describe tothis House that Anggerek Kinta orVanda Hookeriana is a specie of wildorchid which connoisseurs do not growin their gardens. Why? It is becausethe orchid has very poor floweringqualities. Though it has a nice stalkwith four or five buds, only one floweropens at a time, and when the secondone opens the original one turns white.As has been shown by the moverjust now, in that little stalk of twoflowers, one is white and the other iscoloured; and because of its poorflowering qualities people do not growit in their gardens. But that thehybrids of orchids are valuable, thereis no doubt about it : for example,the Vanda Miss Joaquim, Vanda TanChay Yan and Dendrobium Lim SweeAun I do not know whether she hasheard of that one. Now, she has saidthat the qualities of a national flowershould be its origin and its value.Though I do not quarrel with her thatKinta Weed is a Malayan flower, butits value is no better than Bunga Rayabecause, as I have said, its floweringqualities are very poor; if you put itin a refrigerator it will shrink as muchas the Bunga Raya; if you send it toEngland it won't win any prize theprizes are being won by the hybrids oforchids, the big genus of orchids, notAnggerek Kinta.

Now, it is apparent that the Honour-able mover has made some study

1203 21 JUNE 1961

and she has read some books onorchids; perhaps, there are many morebooks she should have consulted. She,perhaps, must have realised that the"orchids" or "Anggerek" is a genericterm. There are orchids grown in thetropics; there are orchids grown intemperate countries ; orchids in Malaya;orchids in England; orchids in SouthAmerica; but they all come under onegroup. It is so wide, therefore, I presumethat she has been wise enough not tochoose the genus orchids as thenational flower but, to be more specific,she has chosen Anggerek Kinta.

Now, as she had chosen AnggerekKinta, this flower, even by its name,shows that it is limited in its habitat,that is to say, it is limited to Kinta;it grows wild only in Kinta and now-where else in the whole of the Federa-tion; and as Honourable Members inthis House have pointed out, thisAnggerek Kinta is not known outsideKinta. The rest of Malaya do not knowwhat it is. So, how can we have it asthe national flower?

The Honourable mover could,perhaps, have had made a betterchoice by choosing Anggerek Punai,or the Anggerek Pigeon, which canbe found along the roadside right downfrom Perlis to Singapore sticking ontrees, and it only flowers very veryrarely, when the temperature of thenight is 10 ° lower than the temperaturein the morning; then you have flowersonce in a while and it only lasts forone day. I am, therefore, surprisedthat she should have chosen AnggerekKinta why not Anggerek Punai orPigeon Orchid which is found all overMalaya? If she had wanted to choosea flower, an orchid of value, an orchidthat could have won a prize in inter-national shows, an orchid that we canbe proud of, when compared with therose or chrysanthemum of othercountries, then, perhaps, she couldhave chosen a local hybrid. But thenagain, the question may arise as towhich hybrid should be chosen, andafter whom it should be named, sincethere are so many hybrids. As shehas pointed out, orchids are namedafter persons. As I have said just now,there is an orchid named after me.

1204

Is she going to choose that as thenational orchid? (Laughter). Hence,there is this difficulty of finding outwhat is the correct or suitable orchidin Malaya that should be the nationalflower.

Sir, I have no doubt that theGovernment realises all these difficul-ties. Whilst the orchid may be a lovelyflower, perhaps, for these reasons, theGovernment has rejected its choiceand has gone to the simple, commonflower, the . Bunga Raya, which isfound all over the country, which iseasily identified, which perhaps maynot be of such value to the con-noisseurs, but which is appreciated byall and sundry.

Puan Hajjah Zain binti Sulaiman:Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya berdirimembangkang usul mi. Bunga Rayabunga kebangsaan kita yang kitamegahkan, indah berseri dan permaiini hendak di-tukarkan pula denganbunga Anggerek Kinta yang baharu inidi-dengar oleh orang. Bunga Raya kitatelah ada dan telah hidup dalam TanahMelayu ini sama lama-nya denganbangsa Melayu dan Tanah Melayu inisendiri (Tepok). Sila lihat Bunga Rayaini wahai Yang Berhormat, lihat-lahbagaimana kelopak-nya yang lima di-chipta, dan jalor-nya yang gagah per-kasa macham rupa Chokmar yang di-atas meja Tuan Yang di-Pertua itu.Apa-kah kekurangan Bunga Raya ini?T'a' ada satu pun kurang-nya ! TuanYang di-Pertua, Bunga Raya ini hidup-nya bebas, senang di-tanam, mullahdi-chochok di-mana2 sahaja is bolehhidup. Bagitu-lah peribadi bunga ke-bangsaan kita sa-bagaimana orangMelayu, bangsa Melayu atau punMalayan bagitu-lah bunga kebangsaan-nya. Ia layu kalau di-ambil atau di-petek walau pun di-simpan dalamtempat sejok. Jadi kepantangan kapadaBunga kebangsaan yang bebas merdekadi-kurong2 macham tawanan. Sila lihat !dengan perhatian (Ketawa).

Dan lagi sa-bagaimana bahasa ke-bangsaan is-itu Bahasa Melayu yangsenang di-pelajari, senang di-tutor dansenang di-gunakan oleh segala bangsadan puck dalam Semenanjong TanahMelayu tanah ayer kita ini, maka

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bagitu-lah juga dengan bunga kebang­saan kita. Saya tidak hendak men­chercha bunga Anggerek Kinta itu kerana ia ada-lah satu jenis bunga chiptaan Allah yang bijaksana yang hidup liar di-lembah Kinta saperti yang di-katakan oleh puan penchadang tadi jadi emak kapada jenis anggerek yang lain, yang di-gilakan2 oleh orang-di­bawa ka-sana ka-mari hingga ka­negeri sejok sana, di-kurongkan dalam bilek kacha, kasehan ! ia bodoh dan lemah, sebab itu-lah ia mahu di-kurong. Tetapi Bunga Raya ini ia tidak mahu di-tawan, tidak mahu di-pikat dan di­tambat apatah lagi di-jual beli di­jadikan perniagaan macham jariah jelita zaman yang lampau, malah ia sendiri menjadi pagar, mengawal tumbohan2 dalam taman kita, dalam kawasan kita dan seterus-nya di-seluroh negeri kita-hidup berkhidmat dan berbahagia.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: Bagus bu!

Mr. Speaker:. Letakkan bunga itu > ka-bawah (Ketawa).

Poan Hajjah Zain binti Sulaiman: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Bunga Raya ini boleh memberi semangat murni (Ketawa) . . . . . sebab itu-lah saya angkat tinggi bunga kebangsaan ini supaya di-pandang dan di-amati2 oleh puan penchadang. Maha Suchi Tuhan yang telah menchiptakan-nya. Tuhan seru sakalian alam yang telah mengil­hamkan kapada Bapak Kemerdekaan kita yang telah memileh bunga yang tinggi peribadi-nya jadi bunga kebang­saan kita-bunga yang hebat tetapi sopan dan santun rupa-nya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya tolak mentah2 bunga Anggerek Kinta yang tumboh di-lembah Kinta di-negeri Perak itu (Tepok).

Datin Fatimah binti Haji Hashim (Jitra-Padang Terap): Dato' Yang di­Pertua, saya bangun ini suka-lah saya menyatakan tidak-lah saya dapat mem­beri sokongan pada usul yang di­chadangkan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormat wakil Dungun itu untok menetapkan

.. _ bunga kebangsaan Persekutuan Tanah Melayu ini hendak-lah di-tukarkan kapada bunga Anggerek Kinta kerana

saya tidak memberi sokongan ini ia­lah saya dapati di-antara kata2 dari­nya sendiri ta' dapat memutuskan yang mana-kah Anggerek Kinta yang sa­benar-nya. Sa-bagaimana chontoh-nya yang telah di-tunjokkan-nya tadi, saya berpendapat, Dato' Yang di-Pertua. ada-lah itu bukan-lah Anggerek Kinta sa-bagaimana yang telah di-terangkan oleh penchadang tadi dengan alasan2 yang di-katakan bahawa Anggerek itu tumboh di-merata cherok lembah ter­utama di-negeri Perak-Kinta sana. Itu memang sebenar-nya, Dato' Yang di­Pertua, yang mana saya berpendapat pokok ini sa-akan2 pokok buloh, subor hidup-nya berumpun, helai-nya halus­tidak saperti yang di-tunjokkan oleh penchadang itu, juga saya dapati warna­nya puteh kebiruan dan juga tidak tahan lama mengikut saperti Bunga Raya juga. Jikalau itu-lah dia dan juga alasan2 dari pehak penchadang tadi yang tidak dapat memberi kenyata'an dengan tegas dan sa-benar-nya terhadap Anggerek Kinta, sa-bagaimana kita telah dengar uchapan-nya tadi mengapa pula berkehendakkan supaya Majlis ini menerima bunga kebangsaan itu yang keaslian-nya yang sa-benar.

Dalam uchapan-nya tadi, kata-nya bunga Anggerek Kinta yang di-bawa­nya itu telah beberapa keturunan memperkenalkan bunga itu supaya di-jadikan bunga kebangsaan. Di­sini jika Yang Berhormat itu dapat menunjokkan yang sa-benar-nya bunga Anggerek Kinta yang asal-nya, saya tidak ragu2 lagi akan menerima dan akan menyokong chadangan ini. Waiau bagaimana pun sekarang ra'ayat Persekutuan Tanah Melayu telah dan sedang memuja2 Bunga Raya sa­bagai bunga kebangsaan, di-tanam hidup subor di-cherok rantau, di­kampong2, di-pekan2 dan boleh di­katakan di-tiap2 rumah dalam negeri ini telah mempunyai-menanam pokok Bunga Raya sa-bagaimana Ahli Yang Berhormat itu sendiri telah mengatakan boleh di-buat pagar di-sekeliling rumah. ltu-lah yang di-kehendaki untok men­jaga harapan kita, menasabah yang di­katakan Bunga Kebangsaan itu.

. Jadi di-sini-lah letak-nya yang saya t1dak dapat memberi sokongan ter­hadap chadangan-nya itu supaya bunga

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kebangsaan kita itu di-tukarkan denga:tl bunga Anggerek Kinta. Saya dapati bunga kebangsaan yang telah di-tetap­kan itu ada mempunyai satu hikmat yang mana kita nampak warna-nya merah terang bila2 masa sahaja kita lehat merah berani sanggup menjadi pagar bagi menjaga bangsa Persekutuan Tanah Melayu. Bunga ini di-punyai dengan tidak memileh peringkat kaya atau miskin, juga di-cherok2 kampong dan bandar semua boleh dapat mem­punyai-nya dan patut serta menasabah di-jadikan Bunga Kebangsaan kita.

Enche' Abdul Ghani bin Ishak (Malacca Utara): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya hendak berchakap pendek sahaja dalam masaalah bunga kebangsaan ini. Kalau di-kaji dalam masaalah bunga, terutama saya sa-bagai sa-orang yang berpengalaman mengajar budak2, bunga yang paling senang saya kenalkan ka­pada murid2 ia-lah bunga raya, kerana bunga raya ini ada mempunyai satu sifat yang mengenalkan semua jenis bunga dalam dunia. Sebab kalau kita dapat sa-tangkai bunga raya, kita boleh menggambarkan kapada murid2 dengan sa-lengkap-nya ia-itu daripada kun­chong sampai kapada kelopak dan sampai kapada debu dengan terang. J adi ini ada satu hikmat. Sekarang ini kita bershukor bahawa bunga raya ini di-jadikan bunga kebangsaan Perseku­tuan Tanah Melayu. Sa-lain daripada mengkaji a, b, c, dan beberapa jenis bunga lagi, barangkali kita senang jumpa dalam Tanah Melayu; keisti­mewaan bunga raya kenapa tidak di­nilai tinggi? Saya sangat menilai tinggi kapada bunga raya. kerana sa-lain ia menjadi perhiasan, ia jadi penjaga. Sa­saorang yang tidak sanggup membeli pagar, ia ha-nya menchuchokkan bunga raya ini menjadi pagar rumah. Ini patut kita banggakan kerana memileh bunga raya menjadi bunga kebangsaan. Dan di­antara beberapa bunga yang saya jumpa dan yang saya tahu, bunga raya-lah yang paling tahan, dan kalau di-tanam di-an­tara beberapa bunga dalam kawasan kita, maka bunga raya-lah yang tahan, tidak mati di-ragut oleh kambing (Ke­tawa). Ini menandakan bahawa bunga ini bukan sahaja menjadi chontoh dan tauladan kapada kita semua, bahkan ia juga mempunyai satu sifat yang isti-

mewa dengan lain2 bunga yang di­chetus sahaja puchok-nya layu-lah- dia, tetapi bunga raya ini susah kalau hen­dak di-katakan layu, ia boleh bercham­bah lagi dengan banyak sa-hingga rimbun dan boleh memagar kawasan kita. Mengapa-kah ini tidak di-siasat sebab-nya kita jadikan bunga raya ini bunga kebangsaan? Kalau hendak ambil indah bunga Anggerek Kinta ini, saya memerhatikan ada bunga yang lagi indah, umpama-nya, Yang Berhormat Menteri Pertanian-sayang-nya ia tidak ada di-sini-ia selalu pakai bunga saya nampak chantek, bunga yang saperti jengking, itu lagi indah kalau kita hen­dak jadikan perhiasan, dan ada bunga lagi yang lebeh indah.

Jadi di-atas istilah apa-kah maka bunga Anggerek Kinta ini hendak menggantikan Bunga Raya menjadi bunga kebangsaan? Ta' dapat langsong saya menyokong hujah2 yang di-keluar­kan oleh penchadang. Oleh itu saya rasa kalau chadangan ini jatoh atau tidak di-terima, maka sa-lama2-nya kita tahu bahawa Persekutuan Tanah Melayu mempunyai satu bunga ke- ~. bangsaan yang mana telah di-fikirkan, yang telah di-pileh dan di-terima serta di-persetujui oleh semua ra'ayat walau pun hanya Yang Teramat Mulia Tunku Abdul Rahman menchadangkan. Ke­rana memandangkan daripada segala segi, bukan hanya daripada kebaikan kelopak-nya sahaja bahkan kita pan­dang daripada kelopak sampai semua daripada apa yang ada dalam pe­nyiasatan itu.

Sa-kian-lah uchapan saya menolak chadangan ini.

Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid (Seberang Utara): Tuan Yang di­Pertua, saya bangun mengambil baha­gian dalam perbahathan ini, dan sa­belum saya melanjutkan chakapan saya mari-lah kita bersama2 kajikan bagai­mana-kah chara-nya sa-suatu negeri itu memileh satu jenis bunga untok di­jadikan bunga kebangsaan negeri-nya. Pada biasa atau lazim-nya, yang per­tama bunga itu berkembangan di-se­luroh atau di-sekitar negeri itu, dan yang kedua, bunga itu kembang di-satu -musim yang tertentu di-seluroh negeri -itu. Yang ketiga. bunga itu mudah

,."'·

1209 21 JUNE 1961 1210

tumboh di-mana juga di-tanam, tum-boh-lah is dengan senang, dan yangka-empat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalaukita tunjokkan atau tanya kapada sa-siapa juga maka dengan senang di-kenali, bukan sahaja oleh orang tuadan orang dewasa bahkan kanak2 punketahui dan kenal bunga yang di-sebut-kan itu. Dan lagi, is menjadi kegunaanbagi satu2 gulongan dan puak dalamnegeri itu. Mithal-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-bagaimana yang di-sebutkanoleh sahabat saya is-itu di-negeri Jepunbunga kebangsaan-nya is-lah bungaSakura, negeri India, kalau saya ta'silap bunga Kiambang (lotus) danEngland bunga cherry blossom kalauta' silap saya . . . . . . .

Mr. Speaker: Kalau ta' tahu jangansebut (Ketawa).

Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid:Jadi, negeri ini waktu hendak menetap-kan satu bunga yang menjadi bungakebangsaan, di-dapati sa-bagaimanasaya sebutkan tadi ada-lah bungakebangsaan yang di-pileh oleh YangTeramat Mulia Perdana Menteri sa-telah menerima pendapat dan pan-dangan daripada seluroh ra`ayat dankebanyakan-nya bersetuju is-itu bungaraya di-jadikan bunga kebangsaan.Raya berma`ana kebesaran, keagongan,sa-bagaimana yang di-sebutkan jalanraya, gendang raya dan lain2 yang me-nentukan keagongan, kebesaran sa-sa-buah negeri itu.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-bagaimanayang di-sebutkan oleh rakan saya tadibunga :raya ini di-pileh dan di-tentukankerana sesuai sangat dengan sharat2yang lazim di-buat untok memilehbunga. Oleh sebab beberapa orangrakan saya tadi telah menta`arif danmema`anakan tentang bunga raya ini,saya ingin juga hendak mengeluarkanfikiran saya : tampok-nya yang hijauitu ma`ana-nya negeri ini is-lah sa-buahnegeri pertanian, yang selalu-nya hijaudan mengeluarkan hasil bumi denganbanyak dan kaya-rays, kelopak-nyayang merah itu tanda "berani keranabenar dan takut kerana salah" kataorange tua, dan belalai-nya itu menge-luarkan madu, ini menunjokkan kema-`amoran sa-sabuah negeri itu, dan adapula warna kuning yang biji-nya ter-

letak di-belalai itu menunjokkanbahawa negeri kita di-perentah denganchara "parliamentary democracy" ataupun "constitutional monarchy". Ia adaberkaitan dengan chara pentadbirannegeri kita mi.

Perkara yang besar sa-kali saya dapattahu bahawa Bunga Raya ini ada-lahmenjadi satu ubat, daun-nya di-ramas2-kan dengan ayer sejok dan di-boatparam kapada orange yang demampanas atau demam kepialu (Ketawa).Akar-nya boleh jadi satu penawar yangbesar bagi orang kampong di-asahakar-nya dan di-minuet sa-bagai pe-nawar di-sapu buat menyembohkanpenyakit kulit. Orange kampong tahudan sangat menghargai Bunga Raya mi.Sa-bagaimana yang telah di-sebutkanoleh Ahli Yang Berhormat wakil dariBesut tadi mengatakan bahawa BungaRaya itu is-lah sa-bagai satu bungapelachoran, saya tidak dapat hendakmenerima tudohan2 yang sa-machamitu dan juga sa-bagaimana yang di-terangkan oleh ahli yang menchadang-kan bahawa bunga Anggerek itu telahpun di-kahwinkan dengan beberapabunga yang lain hingga mengeluarkanjenis2-nya yang lain yang lebeh indahdaripada itu. Akan tetapi Bunga Rayayang merah ini tidak pernah siapakahwin dengan-nya (Ketawa). Jadisangat tidak kena pada tempat-nyayang mengatakan bahawa Bunga Rayaitu sa-bagai bunga pelachoran. Yangsa-benar-nya bunga Anggerek itu-lahpatut di-katakan bunga pelachoran,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bagaimana yangdi-terangkan oleh sahabat saya tadi.

Mr. Speaker: Jangan di-ulang2kanlagi, kalau di-ulang2kan boleh menghi-langkan masa.

Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid:Sakian-lah sahaja, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,(Ketawa).

The Minister of Transport (Dato'Sardon bin Haji Jubir): Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, bagi pehak Kerajaan, rakansaya Menteri Pertanian tidak ada di-sini, apa sebab Kerajaan memilehBunga Raya sa-bagai bunga kebang-saan? Bukan-lah Kerajaan memilehdengan bermahrajalela sahaja. Dengankerjasama Pejabat Penerangan dalam

1211 21 JUNE 1961

beberapa bulan telah masok ka-kam-pong2 meminta pandangan2 daripadaorange ramai untok memberi persetu-juan mana-kah bunga yang hendakdi-jadikan bunga kebangsaan itu.Daripada sembilan buah negeri yangPejabat Penerangan pergi dengan jalanmembuang undi maka di-dapati 117,700orang yang suka memberi pandanganterhadap bunga yang hendak di-jadikan bunga kebangsaan itu. Jadibeberapa kali tapis daripada bilanganyang banyak itu ada tujoh jenis bungasahaja yang masok bilangan dandaripada 7 itu di-kurangkan menjadi5 bunga sahaja. Biar-lah saya bacha-kan supaya Ahli Yang Berhormat dariDungun itu tabu yang orang ramaitidak memileh bunga Anggerek Kintaitu

Bunga melor ... 22,846Bunga chempaka ... 19,080Bunga mawar ... 19,063Bunga tanjong ... 18,073Bunga raya ... 17,830

dan Anggerek Kinta tidak ada(Ketawa). Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dari-pada pendapatan orang ramai inimaka kita menyiasat juga lagi bahawabunga2 yang kita hendak jadikan bungakebangsaan mesti-lah asal-nya di-negeri kita mi. Mengikut pendapat ahlibunga bahawa bunga chempaka itudatang dari India, bunga mawar darisa-belah utara India juga, bunga tan-jong dari India, Burma, bunga terataiitu juga dari India dan China danbunga kenanga daripada MalaysianGroup, itu pun tidak bagitu banyak,yang banyak di-Sumatera, Phillipine,akan tetapi apabila sampai kapadaBunga Raya ini berasal dari negeriChina dan Jepun dan Pacific areas tapiBunga Raya ini sudah beberapa tahunada di-dalam Tanah Melayu ini, danmemang-lah keadaan Bunga Raya itusangat sesuai dengan keadaan orangMelayu sebab warna-nya pun merah,berahi dan di-mana sahaja terchampakdia hidup. Orang Melayu mana duniapergi pun hidup, daun-nya hijau danbunga-nya merah. Kerana hijau ituada-lah menunjokkan subor TanahMelayu ini dan merah itu menunjok-kan bangsa Melayu ini berani. Dengansebab itu-lah maka Kerajaan memutus-kan memileh bunga ini kerana di-kenal

1212

oleh semua bangsa tambahan pulaorang kita Melayu kerana bunga inisangat terkenal oleh orang ramaibukan-lah di-kira kapada chantek danmahal. Terima kaseh.

Che' Khadijah : Tuan Yang di-Pertua, yang pertama sekali saya sukamenjawab kapada Ahli Yang Berhor-mat dari Seberang Tengah yangmengatakan bahawa bunga Anggerekini ada-lah satu bunga yang hidupmenumpang kapada pokok lain atauparasite. Maka ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya merasa bahawa Ahli YangBerhormat itu tidak berapa menge-tahui tentang soal2 bunga Anggerek,yang is tahu yang menumpang itusahaja barang yang menumpang di-kampong itu pokok sakat yang adatumboh di-pokok2 yang besar, tetapiapa yang saya bawa ini is-lah bungaAnggerek Kinta. Dia ini tidak menum-pang kapada pokok2 yang lain. Diatidak menghisap darah pokok yanglain. Dia hidup tegak dengan kebang-gaan-nya sendiri. Saya sangat duka-chita sekali di-atas keterangan2 beliauitu yang dia meny angkal betul2 sa-hingga di-bacha-nya sa-buah majellah *yang kata-nya bunga Anggerek inidi-kenal oleh kesusasteraan dunia yangmengagongkan dia, dan kata-nya lagisunggoh sangat molek tetapi di-pakaioleh pria dan pemuda sa-bagai lambangchinta berahi.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, is chumamengetahui chinta itu chinta berahisahaja. Selalu membawa itu ka-arahyang kotor sahaja, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Chuba di-bawa-nya chintachinta bangsa, chinta tanah ayer yangboleh mengurbankan jiwa kerana tanahayer. Tetapi sangat sayang Ahli2 YangBerhormat dalam Dewan ini selalumembawa apakala sa-orang wanitaberchakap membawa kapada aliranperibadi yang rendah sahaja, TuanYang di-Pertua. Sangat mendukachita-kan Dewan ini, kalau sa-kira-nya adatetamu2 daripada negara lain makasangat menyedehkan, kechiwa sangat,dukachita sekali bahawa Parlimenkita Tanah Melayu ini selalu meng-hina2kan kebesaran wanita kita TanahMelayu mi. (Hear ! hear!) (Tepok).

Ahli Yang Berhormat itu membawasatu pantun atau situ sastera kata-nya

1213 21 JUNE 1961 1214

yang di-tujukan kapada Bunga Rayalnl:

Wahai nasib-mu si-Bunga Raya

Hidup-mu hanya di-tepi j alan sahaja.

Ini juga pantun asmara yang sebetul-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua (Kettawa).Tetapi kerana di-pakai untok kepen-tingan diri-nya maka di-bawa-lahkonon-nya kapada satu Benda yanghanya selalu hidup di-tepi jalan. Apa-kah beliau itu lupa bahawa perempuanpelachor yang berkeliaran di-tepi jalanitu bernama Bunga raya, dan ini-lahdi-pantunkan oleh peminat2 bunga rayaitu. Ia merasa sedeh, is merasa dukakerana is menchintai itu, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua. Maka di-kata-lah Wahaisi-bunga raya, nasib-mu di-tepi jalansahaja. Maka saya sekarang akanmenchuba membawa ka-dalam istanakayangan mi. Ini dia itu, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua (di-sampok). Saya minta,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, semasa sayaberchakap ini supaya Ahli2 Yang Ber-hormat itu berlaku adab sedikit. Dandalam soal ini, saya berpendapatsangat chetek sekali dan sangat tidakadil sekali pendapat2 yang di-keluar-kan oleh Ahli2 Yang Berhormat tadiitu terhadap bunga Anggerek Kintami. Saya juga ada pungutan suratkhabar ini saperti mana yang di-bachakan oleh Ahli Yang Berhormatdalam majallah-nya itu. Lambang,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ini satu peng-hargaan yang sangat di-muliakan olehdunia sastera.

Dalam kesusasteraan dunia, bunga Anggerekmenepati pengertian yang istimewa untokmenggambarkan ketulusan chinta berahiantara pria dan wanita.

Ini kalau di-bawa kapada pria danwanita maka ini lagi kesuchiaan dankeaslian-nya, tetapi kalau di-bawakapada bunga kebangsaan kapadabunga bunga ini ada-lah satu ibaratlambang yang akan memberikan pera-saan chinta chinta kesuchiaan dankeberanian, walau pun harta jiwa-nyaakan melayang, tetap akan memper-tahankan bangsa dan negara-nya lem-bang perpaduan bangsa.

Mr. Speaker: Order ! Saya chumahendak mengingatkan hak puan inihanya boleh menjawab atas hujah2yang di-keluarkan sahaja. Jangan mem-bawa hujah yang baharu !

Che' Khadijah : Saya menj awabperkara yang tadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Dan berikut-nya, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, saudara saya Ahli YangBerhormat wakil dari Kulim Utaradengan ketawa2 kechil-nya sa-akan2yang Anggerek ini ta' pernah di-ketahul. Sedeh sekali, sa-orang bangsaMelayu yang dudok dalam TanahMelayu ini, anak Melayu jati yangtidak mengenal bunga mastika yangterpendam dalam hutan belantara di-tanah ayer-nya sendiri. Sedeh dansangat dukachita saya mendengar-nya.Juga beliau itu berkata tadi yang di-kenal-nya di-negeri Kedah sana,barangkali memang bertenggek2 di-ataspokok dan selalu puteh2 bunga-nya.Itu di-namakan bunga sakat, TuanYang di-Pertua, dan itu memang ter-masok salah satu jenis daripadaAnggerek juga, tetapi itu sahaja yangdi-ketahui-nya, malah is tidak menge-tahui serta mempelajari sedalam2-nya.Sa-bagai sa-orang Ahli Parlimen ismesti mengetahui-nya (Ketawa) sa-suatu hal itu dengan sunggoh2 tidakmain teka2 sahaja sa-bagai budakkechil melihat bunga itu ada di-situ-oh itu sahaja dunia-nya bunga Ang-gerek yang ada dalam negeri Kedah.Sedeh sekali, sa-orang Ahli DewanRa`ayat dalam Persekutuan TanahMelayu, kalau sa-kira-nya di-dengaroleh orange dari luar dunia sunggohsangat mendukachitakan, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua. Kata-nya, kalau-lah di-ibaratkan bunga Anggerek ini sayamengatakan bunga Anggerek Kintabukan-nya bunga yang menumpangtumboh. Ia mempunyai pokok yangtersendiri. Ia tidak bersandar kapadapokok lain. Ia tidak menj adi penghisapdarah (Ketawa). Jadi kata-nya kalauini-lah yang di-ambil men j adi bungakebangsaan, maka kemerdekaan kitaini tidak penoh. Memang kemerdekaanTanah Melayu ini belum penoh lagi,Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Beliau itu punbelum tahu lagi barangkali (Ketawa).

Dan kata-nya lagi bahwa BungaRaya besar, gendang raya, bagai raya,j alan raya memang sunggoh sa-bagai-mana yang saya katakan tadi, TuanYang di-Pertua, nampak-nya lekas darij auh, kerana chahaya-nya merah danmerah kata-nya tanda berani bangsa

1215 21 JUNE 1961

Melayu. Wahai saudara-ku Ahli YangBerhormat (Ketawa) lihat !

Mr. Speaker: mi yang tertawa dariPAS nampak-nya.

Che' Khadijah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya menjawab. Merah gagahperkasa. Memang saga juga bersertadengan warna merah itu is-itu merahdarah daripada kita bersama, bangsakita di-sini yang gagah perkasa, tetapikalau-lah merah bunga ini belummasok ka-gelanggang sudah undor,sudah kechut, ini-kah yang di-nymakanmerah pahlawan yang di-bangga2kan?Sangat sedeh sekali (Tepok). Kalaubagitu-lah pengertian-nya dari pehakAhli2 Yang Berhormat yang ber-megah2kan tali itu sunggoh sedeh dansaya juga sa-bagai bangsa Melayu yangberserta di-masokkan ka-dalam initadi, saya berasa malu saudara2.

Ahli Yang Berhormat wakil dariLarut Selatan yang kata-nya bersetuj udengan saya, kalau sakira-nya bungaOrchid atau bunga Anggerek yangchantek yang lain, tetapi sa-benar-nyaitu saya sudah nyatakan yang beliauitu bersetuju dengan saya, keranabersetuju dengan Orchid mi. Sayamenyatakan yang asli yang di-ketahuioleh dunia bahawa Orchid Kinta inidengan nama Vanda Hookariana itudi-ketahu dan ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya dapat ini tadi denganpertolongan Yang Berhormat MenteriKehakiman yang mana beliau menge-tahui dan is juga meminati bunga ini;dan sangat-lah menghairankan kapadasaudara2 dari Perikatan yang tidakmengetahu bahawa salah sa-orangdari Menteri-nya yang ada di-sinimembawa dan menolong saya men-dapatkan bunga yang ada dalam per-karangan beliau. Dan lihat-lah bagai-mana molek-nya sa-bagaimana yangsaya katakan tadi memang keadaan-nya tumboh is-itu bunga ini sa-bagaiberkelamin, sa-bagai manusia juga clanis mengikut satu2 jenis dan satu2 ke-lamin. Jadi walau pun beliau itumenerangkan berbagai2 perkasa tentangsoal Anggerek ini, saya menyatakanbahawa is bersetuju dengan pendapatsaya yang Anggerek ini mempunyalpenghargaan, tetapi sunggoh pun bagi-tu beliau terpaksa menentang kerana

1216

is mesti tundok kapada suara ramaidari pehak*nya sendiri, kalau tidak isnanti akan melanggar tata tertib parti-nya Pula.

Tuan Yang diyPertua, saya sangatdukachita sekali kapada Ahli YangBerhormat wakil dari Pontian Selatan.Saya lihat Ahli Yang Berhormat ituberdiri macham chaching kepanasanta' tahu merunta, ta' boleh letak bungayang di-tangan-nya itu ta' bolehbersabar lagi, tetapi saya akan jawabdengan sechara tenang dan sabarmuga2 ilham akan masok ka-dalamjiwa Ahli Yang Berhormat itu danbeliau itu nanti akan bersama2 dengansaya. Sebab saya mekasa dukachitayang sebetul-nya dalam pemilehanbunga ini yang sebetul-nya, johari-nyais-lah wanita, tetapi wanita pula yangmenentang dan membangga2kan yangmi. Allah hurabbi ... alang-kah sedeh-nya bagaimana johari-nya wanita yangsedemikian itu, dan kata beliau .

Mr. Speaker : Masa sudah pukol satumi.

Che' Khadijah: Panjang lagi, TuanYang di-Pertua. (Krtawa).

Sitting suspended at 1.00 p.m.

Sitting resumed at 8.30 p.m.

(Mr. Speaker in the Chair)

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

(Motion)Tun Haji Abdul Razak: Mr. Spea-

ker, Sir, I beg to move,That at its rising this day the House do

stand adjourned sine die.

Dato ' V. T. Sambanthan : Sir, m begto second the motion.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,That at its rising this day the House do

stand adjourned sine die.

MOTION"ANGGEREK KINTA" DI-JADI-

KAN BUNGA KEBANGSAANDebate resumed.Question again proposed.

The Minister of Justice (Tun LeongYew Koh): Mr. Speaker, Sir, before

121? 21 JUNE 1961 121$

the Honourable Mover continues withher speech, may I give a short explana-tion in that when I gave her the"Anggerek Kinta" this morning, I didnot have the intention of supportingthe motion. I did so because last nightI saw her bring to the House the VandaJoaquim and I thought I would puther right by giving her the correctflower. I have grown "Anggerek Kinta"for several years and would like to saythat the plant is a fragile one and ithas to cling to some wooden stumpbefore it can thrive.

Che' Khadijah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, menyambong penjawapanhujah daripada Ahli2 Yang Berhormattadi, maka saya teruskan penjawapansaya tentang hujah wakil dari PontianSelatan. Wakil dari Pontian Selatanmengatakan tadi dengan suara yanggarang is-itu "haram" bunga itu di-masokkan dalam peti sejok. Sayasangat hairan dan terperanjat men-dengar kata "haram" itu, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua. "Haram" dari segi mana,ada-kah hadith yang mengatakanharam memasokkan bunga ka-dalampeti sejok ?

Hajjah Zain: Tuan Yang di-Pertua,untok penjelasan. Saya tidak chakap"haram". Saya chakap "pantang" .. .

Mr. Speaker: Nanti dahulu !(Ketawa). Apabila hendak beri pen--j elasan hendak-lah tunggu sama adapehak yang berchakap itu beri jalanatau tidak, kalau is belum dudokberma`ana jangan langsongkan per-chakapan itu. Proceed (Kapada Che'Khadijah).

Che' Khadijah : dan kata beliau itujuga pantang kebangsaan, kerana kitasudah merdeka. Saya ingin juga ber-tanya dalam soal ini : Kebangsaanmana yang memantangkan itu, TuanYang di-Pertua, kebangsaan bangsaMelayu-kah atau kebangsaan warga-negara Persekutuan Tanah Melayu-kah ? Sebab hairan di-balek hairan,pantang kebangsaan memasokkanbunga ka-dalam peti sejok, dan kalau-lah itu pantang, saya juga mentafsir-kan pantang mempunyai peti sejokdi-rumah. Saya fikir Ahli Yang Ber-hormat itu ada mempunyai peti sejoka

dan juga Ahli2 Yang Berhormat yanglain. Jadi pantang itu tidak tepat, tidakkena pada tempat-nya di-keluarkanoleh Ahli Yang Berhormat tali(Interruption).

Che' Khadijah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau ada Ahli Yang Ber-hormat yang ingin berchakap .

Mr. Speaker : Proceed!

Che' Khadijah : Sa-lain daripada itu,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, beliau menga-takan is tidak suka bahawa bungaokid, sa-bagaimana yang saya telahterangkan tali, di-chintai dan di-minati oleh bangsa2 asing, bunga itudi-pelihara dengan chara yang baikdalam kacha dengan mengeluarkanmodal yang banyak. Kata-nya, is tidakmahu, kerana di-minati oleh bangsadari luar. Ini hairan juga ! Kita lebehsenang dan lebeh megah kalau bungaKebangsaan kita di-hargai dan di-berinilai yang tinggi oleh dunia luar walaupun dari segi warna dan kebagusan-nya atau dari segi perekonomiandalam menchari kewangan. Jadi dalamsoal ini saya ta' tahu-lah Yang Ber-hormat itu betul2 "menegakkan benangbasah". Akhir-nya beliau berka.ta, sayatolak mentah2, kalau ta' mentah di-tolak juga, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Jadita' payah kata mentah itu I nterru p-tion minta jangan biadab.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kerana beliaubersunggoh2 mengatakan Bunga Rayaitu penoh megah dan mempunyaipenghargaan yang tinggi dan di-minatioleh tiap2 orang di-dalam TanahMelayu ini hinggakan budak2 kechilsa-kali pun suka meminati-nya. Keranabeliau membangga2kan bahawa BungaRaya itu-lah yang mendapat nilayantinggi oleh yang berhormat itu danboleh-lah dengan kebangaan-nyakapada Bunga Raya itu saya memberigelaran Bunga Raya Perikatan. TuanYang di-Pertua, berpaling kapada yangberhormat rakan saya wakil Jitra-Padang Terap, senyum nampak-nyasaudari itu (Ketawa). Kerana, TuanYang di-Pertua, saya sa-betul-nyamenghargai yang berhormat itu keranabeliau tadi berkata kalau saya memberiketerangan yang tegas di-dalam Ang-gerek Kinta ini, kata beliau, beliau

1219 21 JUNE 1961

akan sokong saya, ini bererti hati kechilyang berhormat itu pada pehak saya.Tuan Yang di-Pertua, tetapi keranadisiplin parti barangkali terpaksa di-tolak juga. Pandai betul rakan saya itumemang itu-lah sa-orang wanita yangsa-jati, Tuan Yang di-Pertua (Ketawa).

Wakil daripada Muar Utara, beliautelah membanggakan yang berhormatitu sa-bagai sa-orang pendidek, sa-bagaisa-orang guru, kata-nya senang diamemberikan pengertian kapada murid2-nya, senang di-kenal. Bunga Raya sa-memang senang di-kenal, di-mana2sahaja siapa yang tidak kenal BungaRaya itu di-pagar, terchorok2 satutimbul, nun di-sudut2, rawa2, nun di-tepi jalan ada Bunga Raya. Tetapitidak ada di-pelihara dengan sunggoh2dan saya yakin dan perchaya di-rumahyang berhormat itu tidak ada me-melihara Bunga Raya, barangkali sa-sudah itu nanti, Tuan Yang di Pertua,beliau balek menanam-nya.

Sa-lain daripada itu beliau berkata,sa-lain daripada membuat perhiasanj auh sa-kali, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,belum sa-tengah hari sudah kunchup.Bunga Raya yang di-bawa oleh yangberhormat tadi is-lah bunga yang di-buat dari plastic, ini memang tidaklayu2, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Ini tidaksa-jati, itu is-Iah immitation is-itubarang tiruan tidak barang ash. TuanYang di-Pertua, beliau berkata yangkata-nya pokok Bunga Raya itu di-buat sa-bagai pagar dan sangat kuatkata-nya di-tarek kambing pun tidakapa2. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pokokBunga Raya sahaj a yang boleh menj adipagar, pokok senudok pun boleh jadipagar juga dan lagi pula kuat. Inichuma kata sahaja, tetapi tidak di-buktikan dan saya rasa di-rumah yangberhormat itu tidak ada pagar yang di-buat daripada Bunga Raya. Lagi kata-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Bunga Rayaini sangat berguna kerana bunga-nyaboleh di-buat mengilatkan kasut. Jadikalau itu-lah hasil Bunga Raya itu,berapa orang-kah di-dalam Dewan inibarangkali yang menj adikan BungaRaya itu belakin kasut-nya. Entah-lahkalau yang berhormat itu memakaibelakin kasut-nya daripada BungaRaya saya tidak tahu-lah (Ketawa).Berapa-kah factory2 di-dalam Tanah

1220

Melayu ini menghasilkan Bunga Rayaitu membuat belakin kasut. Saya rasatidak pernah ada factory yang di-buatbelakin daripada Bunga Raya. TuanYang di-Pertua, j adi ini nyata2 danterang2 tidak boleh di-napikan bahawasegala hujah2 itu ada-Iah menegakkanbenang basah. Dan lagi kata-nya,pokok itu kuat dan kayu-nya boleh di-buat berus gigi. Saya tidak pernahmelihat orang memakai berus gigidaripada pokok Bunga Raya. Ta' tahu-lah, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau di-negeri Melaka banyak orange memakaiberus gigi daripada batang Bunga Raya.

Enche ' Abdul Ghani bin Ishak: Sayahendak menerangkan bab 35, sayatidak berchakap perkara itu, kalauhendak datang besok pagi, boleh-lahdatang ka-rumah saya (Ketawa).

Mr. Speaker: Ini apa bab 35(Ketawa). Dudok dahulu dual. Apabilasa-orang tengah berchakap yang lainboleh menyampok dengan mengatakanhendak beri satu2 kenyataan, kemudianminta is memberi jalan, kalau is tidakmemberi awak tidak boleh bangun.Saya telah berchakap banyak kali'*berkenaan dengan mi. Ada-kah Che'Khadijah hendak beri is jalan.

Che' Khadijah: Tidak. (Ketawa).Tuan Yang di-Pertua, di-dalam soalmen j adikan kayu Bunga Raya itu berusgigi tidak tahu-lah saya kalau daripadapehak Perikatan mahukan factory ituuntok membuat berus gigi mereka.

Enche' Hanafi bin Mohd . Yunus:Tuan Yang di-Pertua, f asal hendakbuat berus gigi itu saya yang berchakap-nya.

Mr. Speaker: Ada-kah Che' Puanhendak memberi j alan.

Che' Khadijah : Saya tidak ben.

Mr. Speaker: Dia ada hak menjawabatas apa juga hujjah yang ada di-sini.

Che' Khadijah: Kalau yang ber-hormat daripada Kulim itu berkata,beliau-lah mengatakan Bunga Raya ituboleh di-buat belakin kasut atau batang-nya boleh di-buat berus gigi, saya jugatidak pernah mendengar di-sana adafactory berus gigi daripada BungaRaya.

1221 21 JUNE 1961 1222

Enche' Hanafi bin Mohd . Yunus:Tuan Yang di-Pertua,.. . .

Che' Khadijah: Saya tidak ben.Wakil daripada Melaka Utara tadimengatakan, kata-nya walau pun BungaRaya itu di-ranggut kambing sa-kali"pun tidak apa2. Barangkali, saya rasa,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, pokok BungaRaya itu tidak sedap, jadi dia terusmengelakkan diri-nya. Ini bererti-lahdan terang2 jangankan manusia, tetapikambing pun tidak menyukal-nya. Sayaberasa sangat dukachita sa-kali bagai-mana yang berhormat rakan2 saya di-sini boleh mempertahankan denganchara bermatian2 untok menjadikanBunga Raya itu sa-bagai Bunga Ke-bangsaan.

Menjawab yang berhormat dariSeberang Utara yang menyebutkan ia-itu negara2 yang mempunyai BungaKebangsaan, kata-nya negeri Jepundengan Sakura-nya, Bunga Kiambangdari saudara2 bangsa India. Dan kalau-lah satu2 negara itu satu2 bangsa itumegah dengan bunga Kebangsaan-nyadan kalau negeri Jepun dengan bungaSakura-nya memang-lah, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, kerana keadaan bungaSakura itu sangat istimewa dan sangatmengkagumkan. Dengan ini-lah yangmenjadikan bangsa Jepun sa-bagaijiwa, roh dan peribadi-nya daripadabangsa yang melambangkan bungaSakura itu. Tetapi, alang-kah dukachitadan sedeh-nya jika Bunga Raya ini kitalambangkan kapada negara PersekutuanTanah Melayu yang terkenal sekarangyang di-agongkan di-seluroh dunia di-mana berbangga dengan tentera2-nyayang telah di-kirim ka-Congo sanauntok menolong menyelamatkan negaraluar, tetapi sedeh sangat dan dukachitajika bunga yang semacham ini kitabanggakan, kita keluarkan sa-bagaiikatan peribadi bangsa kita di-tanahayer kita mi. (Hear ! Hear ! ).

Mr. Speaker: Bunga Raya yanglayu ! (Ketawa).

Che' Khadijah : Ini Bunga Raya yanglayu. Tadi telah saya katakan YangBerhormat Perdana Menteri tadi tidakhadzir di-sini semalam saya bawayang segar Bunga Raya dan BungaAnggerek, tetapi oleh kerana usul saya

ta' dapat di-kemukakan semalam, sayaterpaksa meminta tolong simpankan di-kantin sana, maka di-masokkan-fah ka-dalam ice-box. Bunga Anggerek yangsaya bawa bersama yang saya kemuka-kan dalam Dewan ini untok mengganti-kan Bunga Raya ini maseh segar lagi,maseh berchahaya, maseh menegakkandiri-nya sa-bagai Bunga yang bernapassaperti saudara2 yang ada dalam Dewanmi. Dan kebetulan Pula Bunga Rayayang tinggal sama2 semalam yangbaharu satu hari di-simpan, sudah layu,Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Tetapi manaboleh di-bandingkan dengan bungaSakura dari Jepun, atau Indonesia,atau bunga Kiambang dari Indiasunggoh menyedehkan sama sekali !

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER : Sudahlayu !

Che' Khadijah : Kerana sudah layumaka is tidak nampak besar (Ketawa)(di-sampok).

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau saudaraYang Berhormat itu hendak berchakapada masa-nya nanti !

Mr. Speaker: Order ! order ! Sayaada (Ketawa).

Che' Khadijah: Saya selalu di-ganggu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Mr. Speaker: Boleh berchakapperkara yang lain (Ketawa).

Che' Khadijah: Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sa-bagai yang telah sayakatakan tadi kalau di-bawa bungakebangsaan daripada negara lain di-tandingkan kapada bangsa2 yang ber-kehendakkan satu pamiran daripadabunga kebangsaan daripada satu bangsaatau satu negara pada suatu masakelak, maka di-kirimkan-lah daripadaTanah Melayu Bunga Raya; daripadanegara Jepun bunga Sakura, dan dari-pada tempat2 lain di-kirimkan-lahbunga2 kebangsaan-nya dengan megahturun masing2 dari kapal terbang, makakarangan bunga dari Tanah Melayuapabila kapal terbang itu turun, di-songsong-nya-lah oleh panitia itumaka di-lihat karangan-nya bunga ke-bangsaan itu dawn-nya sahaja yangtinggal, bunga-nya sudah Iayu. Jadikalau bagini-lah Bunga kebangsaan kita

1223 21 JUNE 1961 1224 0

di-pamirkan dalam pamiran antarabangsa seluroh dunia ini, mana letak-nya penghargaan dunia tentang bungakebangsaan Tanah Melayu mi.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER : Banggabagi Malaya !

Che' Khadijah : Ya, bangga.

Mr. Speaker: Order ! Yang Ber-hormat ta' boleh menj awab perkaraitu. Ini nampak-nya sudah lari dari-pada itu.

Che' Khadijah: Sebab, hujah tadibunga kebangsaan yang di-selurohdunia, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Mr. Speaker: Ini sudah melarat.

Che' Khadijah: Dan Ahli YangBerhormat itu berkata daun BungaRaya ini juga mendatangkan menafaat,mendatangkan hasil dan boleh di-jadi-kan ubat bagi orange kampong. Daun-nya itu di-ramas. Jadi ayer-nya ber-lendir keluar (Ketawa) (di-sampok).Dan dengan yang demikian dapatmengubat prang yang sakit, TuanYang di-Pertua. Kalau dawn inimenghasilkan ubat, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, ta' payah di-buat factory ubatdari luar negeri, chukop dengan dawnBunga Raya ini di-adakan factory dandi-buat untok mengubat penyakit otakorange kampong. Sunggoh aj aib dansunggoh berbahagia kita jikalau sudahada factory ubat daun Bunga Rayadalam negeri ini, dan kata-nya lagiakar-nya juga di-jadkkan ubat. Jadibanyak semua yang terpakai. Bunga-di-megahkan sa-bagai kebangsaanbangsa kita. Daun-nya di-gunakan sa-bagai ubat. Akar-nya juga di-gunakansa-bagai ubat. Tetapi ubat apa? Danberapa orang-kah yang telah meng-gunakan ubat itu? Saya pun tidaktahu. Kalau-lah kita boleh adakanfactory ubat ini daripada dawn bungaini ah ini harus boleh j adi kagum,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan boleh kitabanggakan. Tetapi, kita ta' nampak,jikalau . Ahli Yang Berhormat itu adamengatakan banyak orang yang me-makai ubat ini, malah di-tempat sayata' ada orang memakai-nya.

Dan beliau berkata Bunga Rayaini ta' pernah di-kawinkan dan ta' ada

siapa yang mengkawinkan (Ketawa)(Interruption)

Mr. Speaker : Proceed.

Che' Khadijah : . . . tetapi kalau-lahitu yang di-j adikan huj ah, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, Ahli Yang Berhormat itusunggoh tidak mengetahui ilmu tum-bohan2, bahawa dengan sa-sunggoh-nya is ta' tahu Bunga Raya jugabanyak di-kawinkan sa-hingga bolehmenghasilkan saperti Bunga Raya yangdi-j adikan Bunga Kebangsaan yangsa-malam sudah layu ini TuanYang di-Pertua, biar saya bukakansupaya nampak daun kelopak-nya(Interruption) jadi kalau ini di-kawinkan maka daun-nya boleh ber-lapis, dan warna-nya berbagai2. Chuba-lah pergi ka-kebun bunga. Saya telahpergi ka-kebun bunga pagi tadi, dansaya telah di-beri tahu oleh penjagakebun itu kata-nya, bunga ini di-kawinkan dengan Bunga ini menj adibagini dia. Jadi itu menunj okkanbahawa Bunga Raya ini juga di-kawin2kan. Jadi banyak j angan ketawakalau di-sebut kawin (An HONOUR-ABLE MEMBER : Ta' betul)^-

Mr. Speaker : Order. No interruptionplease.

Che' Khadijah: Sentiasa-lah biadab(Kapada Ahli . Yang Berhormat yangmenyampok).

Tuan Haji Ahmad bin Saaid: Per-kataan "biadab" itu unparliamentary."Biadab" ma`ana-nya kurang ajar.Minta tarek balek.

Mr. Speaker: Puan ta' boleh chakapkalimah "biadab".

Che' Khadijah: Dalam StandingOrder mengatakan kalau, menyampokorang berchakap mesti beradab ta'boleh biadab jadi ini parliamentary,Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Mr. Speaker: Kalimah "biadab" ituunparliamentary.

Che' Khadijah: Ia-lah, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, Saya selalu di-ganggu,Tuan Yang di-Pertua. . .

Mr. Speaker: Ape! (appeal) padasaya.

D

1225 21 JUNE 1961

Che' Khadijah: Di-apel pun, TuanYang di-Pertua, yang lain masehmengganggu terus . . .

Mr. Speaker: Saya akan tahan.

Che' Khadijah : . . . saudara pehaklelaki tidak menghargai wanita dalamParlimen ini . .

Mr. Speaker: Order, order. Dudok.Saya minta Ahli2 Yang Berhormatjangan mengganggu apa yang di-chakapkan oleh pehak yang ber-chakap . .

Che' Khadijah: Saya minta .

Mr. Speaker: Puan jangan pulamengganggu saya berchakap . .. .supaya kita dapat menghabiskankerja dengan selamat.

Che' Khadijah : Terima kaseh, TuanYang di-Pertua, saya harap supayakalau wanita yang berchakap dalamDewan ini pehak daripada kaumbapa .. .

Mr. Speaker: Tidak apa.

Che' Khadijah : . . harus berlakudengan tenang.

Mr. Speaker: Chakap.

Che' Khadijah : Jadi, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dalam soal tumbohan2 untokmembaiki dan untok mengeluarkanhasil yang lebeh bagus, maka bunga2itu memang di-kawinkan itu BahasaMelayu-nya.

Dan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, bagimenjawab hujah yang di-beri olehsalah sa-orang Menteri Yang Ber-hormat tadi yang mengatakan bahawamasa memileh bunga Kebangsaan iniada di-minta daripada orang ramaisupaya menghantar chadangan-nyamasing2. Tetapi saya ta' tahu, sayamerasa soal bunga Kebangsaan inibukan-lah soal kechil, ini ada-lah soalbesar, ini ada-lah soal negara dan soalbangsa. Sa-harus-nya hendak-lah di-beri masa yang lama untok ra`ayatPersekutuan Tanah Melayu mengemuka-kan pendapat-nya sa-bagaimana lama-nya masa yang di-beri untok memileh"Lagu Kebangsaan". Tetapi sayamerasa dalam soal bunga Kebang-saan ini masa-nya tidak lama dan

1226

penerangan-nya tidak berapa luas di-beri untok meminta pendapat daripadaorang ramai, sebab saya sendiri ta'tahu, dan kalau sa-kira-nya untokmemileh bunga ini, saya merasa sa-harus-nya Kerajaan meminta kapadatiap2 persatuan wanita, kerana wanita-lah yang lebeh mengetahui dalam soalbunga, biasa-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua,wanita yang menyukai dan meminatibunga, tetapi ini tidak di-perbuat olehpehak Kerajaan. Jadi kalau lelaki yangmemileh kebanyakan-nya itu-lahyang nampak di-tepi jalan itu yanglekas di-ambil. Tetapi sa-harus-nyakita mesti pileh dengan sunggoh2, kitamesti bandingkan satu2, kita mestilihat kegunaan-nya, keaslian-nya,kechantekan-nya dan ibarat yang adadi-kandong oleh bunga itu boleh di-jadikan ibarat kapada bangsa kitadalam tanah ayer kita. Jadi harus inimemakan masa yang agak panjang,tetapi tidak, tiba2 sahaja dengan tidakdi-sedari telah di-umumkan bahawaBunga Raya menjadi bunga Kebang-saan. Menurut keterangan-nya tadi adabeberapa bunga yang telah di-kemuka-kan, dan yang di-pileh 5 bunga is-ituMelor, Chempaka, Mawar, BungaTanjong dan Bunga. Raya. Maka yangdi-pileh mengikut suara sa-ramai17,000 is-lah Bunga Raya. Beliau jugamengaku bahawa Bunga Raya iniberasal dari negara luar is-itu darinegeri China dan Jepun. Jadi di-ketahui sunggoh .

Dato ' Sardon bin Haji Jubir: TuanYang di-Pertua, untok penjelasan.Saya kata kawasan pacific termasokkita.

Che' Khadijah : Ia-lah... tetapi tadidi-sebut negeri China dan Jepun. Jadi,Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau kita telahmengetahui asal-usul kedatangan-nyadari luar, tentu lebeh bagus kita ambilyang ash, yang ada dalam tanah ayerkita ini saperti Bunga Anggerek Kinta,sa-bagaimana yang saya terangkantadi, is-itu ash, tumboh dalam TanahMelayu ini, is-itu nun ! lembahKinta. . .

The Assistant Minister of Informa-tion and Broadcasting (Tuan SyedJa`afar bin Hasan Albar): Dungun.

1227 21 JUNE 1961

Che' Khadijah: . . . terang2 kitamenyatakan .. . tidak di-Dungun,tetapi dalam Kinta di-tanah Arab(Ketawa) (Interruption)-

Mr. Speaker: Order, order.

Che' Khadijah : Dan, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Yang Berhormat itu juga me-ngatakan Kerajaan memileh BungaRaya itu kerana is gagah perkasa,merah itu kata-nya, tanya berani danhijau itu menunj okkan kedudokanTanah Melayu ini subor dan penohdengan hasil bumi. Kalau pengertianwarna itu memang tepat, betul, TuanYang di-Pertua, warna merah itu me-mang garang, erti-nya berani dan hijauitu menunj okkan tumbohan2 is-itu hashbumi Tanah Melayu itu pengertialwarna. Tetapi kalau di-bawa kapadabunga, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, sudahberlain erti-nya kalau di-bawa kapadaBunga Raya ini pengertian-nya sudahlari, sudah ta' tepat. Sebab kalau gagahperkasa dan berani di-taroh dalam pasuwalau pun beberapa hari lama-nya, istetap segak, gagah sa-bagai slap sediauntok melawan, tetapi ini baharu duahari sahaj a sudah tidak ada lagi sudahkunchup-layu (Ketawa) (Interrup-tion).

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Che' Khadijah binti Mohd . Sidek:Kalau di-bawa kapada Bunga Rayaitu bererti sudah lari, sudah tidak tepat,sebab kalau is gagah perkasa yangberani di-masokkan dia di-dalam pasuwalau beberapa lama sa-kali pun diatetap segak, megah sa-bagai orang yangsedia untok melawan sahaja, TuanYang di-Pertua, tetapi baharu sahaj adua hari tidak ada lagi kunchup dan.layu sahaja, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.(Ketawa). Jadi sudah menggeletartulang-nya, sudah takut menghadaplawan-nya. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, itutidak tepat kalau yang di-katakan tadikalau merah itu gagah dan perkasa.Di-sini erti-nya bahawa Bunga Rayaitu ada-lah pengechut dan penakutbelum ka-gelanggang sudah undor,Tuan Yang di-Pertua.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, kalau hijau itubiar-lah saya bersetuju kerana daunBunga Raya itu dia tidak layu dan

1228

sama juga dengan daunt yang .lain.Kata yang Berhormat itu, Tuan Yangdi-Pertua, Bunga Raya itu di-pandangtinggi dan Bunga Raya itu ada-lah sa-bagai pahlawan sa-bagai benting is-itumenj adi pagar, erti-nya pagar dalamrumah2, kalau ia, bunga ini sa-bagaipahlawan, jadi pagar, bukan untokrumah, pagar untok bangsa, pengertian-nya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Saya merasaYang Berhormat itu juga, dia berkataitu tetapi dia tidak kota. Saya yakinjuga rumah yang Berhormat itu pagar-nya tidak ada di-buat daripada BungaRaya. Dan kalau-lah sunggoh, sayaboleti hetong di-dalam bandar KualaLumpur ini saya berj alan kapada tiap2rumah barangkali dalam 1,000 satupun tidak ada pagar Bunga Raya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, saya yakin danperchaya kalau di-bawa BungaAnggerek Kinta dan di-bawa BungaRaya itu ka-dalam musharakat orangramai di-tanya kapada mereka mana-kah mereka sutra di-antara dua bungaini. Saya yakin dan perchaya BungaAnggerek Kinta ini akan mendapatpilehan yang ramai, Tuan Yang di-Pertua. Jadi gelaran Bunga Raya sa-bagai pahlawan itu sangat menduka-chitakan, dukachita saya katakan walaupun di-bangga2kan. Dan pula sayayakin dan perchaya kalau saya tanyatiap2 jiwa raga daripada yangBerhormat2 yang dudok dalam Dewanini mereka itu tentu sukakan bungaAnggerek ini, Tuan Yang di-Pertua.Tetapi kerana terpaksa sudah ter-langkah maka tidak mahu menarekbalek langkah itu maka mahu ta' mahu,walau pun dalam hati suka terpaksajuga menentang-nya.

Mr. Speaker: Itu hujjah mana itu(Ketawa).

Che' Khadijah: Hujjah yang Ber-hormat itu.

Mr. Speaker : Itu tidak ada orangsebut.

Che' Khadijah : Jadi pada pend apatsaya, walau pun usul saya ini padaketika ini j atoh dalam Dewan ini, TuanYang di-Pertua, tetapi saya yakin danperchaya satu masa nanti usul saya iniakan kembali di-kemukakan lagi danmungkin akan berjaya. Sa-belum saya

1229 21 JUNE 1961

menghabiskan uchapan saya, saya akanmenutup-nya, Than Yang di-Pertua.Dengan melihat lekas layu-nya BungaRaya itu pada taksiran saya bahawaBunga Raya itu di-beri ibarat kapadapahlawan2 di-tanah ayer kita ini dankalau-lah Yang Berhormat2 dari Per-ikatan bermati2an mempertahankanBunga Raya ini maka saya mempunyaitaksiran bahawa pahlawan2 Perikatankelak akan undor sa-belum masokdalam gelanggang, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, dan mungkin tahun 1964 makapahlawan2 Perikatan undor akan di-gantikan oleh pahlawan2 yang laindalam negeri mi.

Sa-takat ini sahaja.

AN HONOURABLE MEMBER : PAS

Che' Khadijah: Mudah2an.

Question put, and negatived.

HOSPITAL CHARGES ANDSPECIALISTS' FEES

Enche ' K. Karam Singh (Damansara):Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move,

That this House views with concern theadverse effects on the medical services of thepresent system of hospital charges andspecialists' fees and resolves that a commis-sion of inquiry be appointed to review thesaid system of hospital charges andspecialists' fees with a view to ensuring thatthe best medical treatment and medical skillare extended to all patients, irrespective oftheir economic standing, in Governmenthospitals throughout the Federation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it would be a grandday for the people of Malaya when wehave a socialised medical service, whichwould treat all sick persons in thiscountry purely as part of humanity'sfight against disease and not as partof a struggle for the medical professionto acquire more and more riches butthat remains an ideal before the peopleof Malaya. In the meantime the posi-tion of the medical services in ourcountry has further receded from thisgreat ideal. Whereas a few years ago theordinary people of our country could goto any hospital and get medicines freeof charge; today they go to the samehospital, they are examined, they getthe prescriptions and when they areabout to take the medicine they aretold to pay up. And many of them go

1230

back disappointed, because they do nothave even that small sum of moneywhich is demanded by the hospitals formedicine, which only a short while agowas given free. Mr. Speaker, Sir, allthis makes the Malayan ra`ayat feelvery sceptical of Government's state-ment that it is going to expand themedical services further and further andin a greater measure into the ruralareas.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I should say thatwe have got a ra`ayat in this land whoare medically neglected; and that neglectstems from the present structure ofsociety where money has more valuethan men and where although a manmay be dying of sickness he does notget treatment just because he does nothave the monetary qualifications. But,Sir, the central point of my motion iscontained in paragraph 56 of Cap. Fof the General Orders of our Govern-ment, on page 10. Mr. Speaker, Sir, Iwill read the entire paragraph :

"To officers who have performed servicesfor which Consultation, Miscellaneous andSpecialist Fees are received, the followingportions of such fees shall be refunded, thebalance in each case being retained by theGovernment :

(a) Fees paid to Clinical Specialist Officers,i.e., Surgeons, Physicians, Anaesthe-tists, Opthalmologists, Obstetricians,Gynaecologists, Ear, Nose and ThroatSpecialists, and such other SpecialistOfficers as may be declared by theDirector of Medical Services to beClinical Specialist Officers-

(i) of the first $500 per menseminclusive of Consultation andNett Fees, the full sum;

(ii) of the next $750 per mensem,Consultation Fees in full andNett Fees (if any), one-half;

(iii) of the next $2,000 per mensem,Consultation Fees in full andNett Fees (if any), onequarter;

(iv) of any sum in excess of $3,250per mensem, ConsultationFees in full and Nett Fees,one-tenth.

(b) Fees paid to non-Clinical SpecialistOfficers, i.e., Radiologists, Patholo-gists, Bacteriologists, Biochemists andsuch other Specialist Officers as maybe declared by the Director ofMedical Services to be non-ClinicalSpecialist Officers-

(i) of the first $500 per menseminclusive of Consultation andNett Fees, the full sum

1231 21 JUNE 1961 1232

Consultation Fees in full andNett Fees (if any), one-quarter;

of any sum in excess of $1,250per mensem Consultation Feesin full and Nett Fees one-tenth.

(ii) of the next $750 per mensem, Paying patients in SecondClass Ward ... ... Maximum $200

Third Class patients ... No charge."

And then further down it reads,

"The maximum charge for surgical andpsychiatric services for the relief of the samecondition , even if more than one operation isrequired , will be limited to $750."

And further down in paragraph 3it is stated as follows,

"Accouchement and Maternity Fees(including all requisite ante -natal and post-natal examinations conducted in hospitals atpre-arranged times).

Paying patients in FirstClass Ward ... ... Maximum $200

Paying patients in SecondClass Ward ... ... Maximum $100

Third Class patients ... No charge."

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we find that mostof these high fees for specialisttreatment come from the first classpatients and, slightly lower than that,from the second class patients andaccording to the General Orders no feesare charged on third class patients.Sir, on these General Orders when itreads "Third class patients Nocharge" it sounds very nice and itlooks as if the third class patients of ,our country get free specialist service.But this is entirely misleading, as whatthis amounts to in practice is that thethird class patients do not getspecialist treatment at all. How is itthat the third class patients do not getspecialist treatment at all? I know thatin many hospitals in our countryspecialist officers are known not tohave visited the third class wards atall, and the reason is very simple. Thespecialist officer if he attends a thirdclass patient will get no charges. Hewill not get $200; he will not even get$2 because there is no provision forfees, and if the specialist officer cannotget any fees from third class patients,it follows that he will . not get anyrefund at all because nothing is paid.So what is happening is that thespecialist officers devote themselvesonly to first class patients who arerich so that these rich patients willpay them a good fee, and out ofthat fee they can retain a very hand-some proportion. If their total fees fora month amounts to $500 , it is theirsfor the taking . Mr. Speaker , Sir, if weabolish the refunding of specialist fees

(c) Fees paid to other officers-Such portions of fees as are pres-

cribed for non -Clinical SpecialistOfficers in (b) above."

Mr. Speaker, Sir, for the benefit ofthose, who are not well acquaintedwith this paragraph , I will clarify alittle further in that certain portions ofthe fees I have mentioned just nowin the first case $500, in the second case$750, in the third case $1 ,250 and soon are to be given to the specialistofficer concerned . If the fees earned bythe specialist officer is $500 permensem , the specialist takes that $500;above $500, if he earns $750 p.m. thespecialist takes all the consultation feesand half of the nett fees ; of the next$2,000 p.m., the specialist takes one-quarter , i.e., $500 ; and of any sum inexcess of $3,250 p.m., he takes all theconsultative fees and of the nett fees,one-tenth . This refunding to specialistofficers who are clinical specialistsofficers is almost repeated for non-clinical specialist officers.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very importantfor us to note that these specialistfees are given to the specialist officersover and above their regular salariesand apart from the fact that it is anirregular practice in that although themedical specialist officers receivecertain fixed salaries they also getsomething over and above that, it isnot a fixed amount-I will show tothis House how certain very grave andadverse effects arise out of this systemof refunding specialist fees to specialistmedical officers.

Mr. Speaker , Sir, we find that mostof the high fees charged in Governmenthospitals are charged in the first classwards by paying patients . For instance,Sir, on page 13 of Cap. "F" of theGeneral Orders it says :

"Operation and Psychiatric Fee :Paying patients in FirstClass Ward ... ... Minimum $25,

maximum $500

1233 21 JUNE 1961 1234

to specialist officers and all specialistfees are instead credited to the Govern-ment Revenue, we will remove the oneinducement to the specialist officers inour hospitals which attracts thespecialist officers to the moneyedpatients in the first class; and since itwill remove that attraction it willmake on difference to the specialistofficer whether he attends to a firstclass patient or a third class patient,because he is not going to get anymonetary profit from serving the oneinstead of the other. When thisrefunding system is abolished, he cansee the patient as a sick person and notas a rich person to be attended to, andleaving a poor person alone. By theabolition of this system of refundingfees to specialist officers, we will findthat the medical service will then, inGovernment hospitals at least, be trulymeant for sickness and not for status.

In the Government Service specialistofficers get a regular salary, but if thepresent system of paying refundscontinues it will make the specialistofficers selfish and will reduce theposition of the specialist officer apartfrom his salary to that of a privatepractioner, who makes a type ofprivate income whilst still in Govern-ment Service. The abolition of therefunding system will remove thistemptation from our specialists inGovernment hospitals.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, another evil thatarises from this system is this : thereare certain specialist officers who getmore cases than others. For instance,we know very well, and our Ministerof Finance complained about it theother day, that Malaya's population isincreasing very fast, o, what we haveis that those specialists who areobstetricians get more cases in the firstclass wards than do other specialistofficers. So, there are some specialistofficers who do not get big fees andwho subsequently do not get verymuch of refunds. But there are officers,like obstetricians, who every monthget a lot of cases and whose fees arevery high and who consequently geta very big income apart from theirsalaries. What it leads to is that onespecialist officer gets less income in

Government Service than another, buttheir qualifications are on the samelevel they specialise in differentsections of the medical science. Whatthis will lead to in our MedicalService is that the specialist who getsless income apart from his salary willhave heart-burning and he will bejealous of the specialist who gets more;and once these jealousies are stirred,once the General Orders make provi-sion for such jealousies , it is bound toaffect the efficiency of our MedicalService. There will be disgruntledelements who sincerely feel that theyare not getting what their colleaguesget and , consequently, you will findthat they will not give off their best tothe patients who come to them.

Mr. Speaker , Sir, another evilconsequence of this system of refundingfees to medical officers is thatspecialist officers like only to work inbig towns, like Kuala Lumpur, wherethere are a lot of rich people who arealways coming to the first class ward.If they are in places like Kuala Lumpurand always get rich patients in thefirst class ward , they can always haverefunds and be very happy.

So, this makes the specialist officervery reluctant to go to small townswhere there are very few rich people,and it will be interesting to our col-leagues from the East Coast to knowthat this is one of the reasons whyspecialist medical officers are not foundon the East Coast or, if found, theyare found rarely, because there are notvery many rich people on the EastCoast . Therefore , there is not enoughfinancial inducement for these medicalofficers to leave the prospects of addi-tional income say, in Kuala Lumpurand goy to the East Coast . But, Mr.Speaker, Sir, if this system is abolished,then it will make no difference to thespecialist officer whether he serves inKuala Lumpur, or in Grik, or in KualaLipis, or in Kota Bharu, or in Dungun,or in Kuala Trengganu ; it will be thesame for him, because he is not goingto get more or less money by being inone or another place.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, another grave, andI would say catastrophic, effect of thissystem is that it affects those people,

1235 21 JUNE 1961 1236

who are the victims of the worstdiseases in our country. We know theGovernment has always brought intoprominence its fight against tubercu-losis and leprosy. We know also thatthose people in our country, the vastmajority, who get tuberculosis andleprosy are poor people, who cannotafford to pay the maximum charges ofspecialist fees amounting sometimes to$200 and sometimes to $500. Sincethese people are not in a position topay specialist fees, the specialists donot care to come into those sections ofthe Medical Service which deal withtuberculosis and leprosy, because ifthey come to these sections of theMedical Service, they will not get anyextra money which they can get if theystay on in some other sections of theMedical Service where there are richpatients.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it will be futile forthe Government to continue this systemof refunding fees to specialists and atthe same time to propagate its cam-paign for the eradication of tuberculosisand for the fight against leprosybecause, although you may be able toget the public support in the fightagainst these two diseases, althoughyou may have the best intentions in theworld, you will not have the men,medical specialists, who will be willingto come and attend to patients whosuffer from tuberculosis and leprosy. Itwould be a service to humanity if thisbarrier the system of paying refundsto the service of our tuberculosis andleprosy patients is eradicated.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we know that thepoor in our country, who do not getfood which is good enough and whoseliving conditions are very meagre andwho are most susceptible to disease,are at the moment not getting the bestmedical attention which is their due.It is the imperative duty of this Govern-ment to see to it that those who areunder-privileged by their living condi-tions, by their social conditions, areat least not denied the best medicalservices that the public of our countrypossesses.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, then we find that aquestion may arise, if we are going toabolish this system of refunding medical

specialist fees to specialist officers; andthat is, what are we going to do toreplace the present system? Mr.Speaker, Sir, I am not saying that thisbe done or that be done, but I am onlyasking that a Commission of Inquiryshould be appointed to consider whatthe best system is; and if it finds thatthe specialist officers are not gettingenough for their services, that they areoverworked, then it may consider itnecessary to regularise the position bygiving them a rise in their salaries.Further, I would say that that riseshould be fixed and regular paymentsmade and that this evil system ofrefunding should be abolished.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, my motion is nota controversial one and it is not a partyissue; it is for the benefit of all; andI am sure all parties would accept thearguments that have been advanced,and I hope that all parties and allMembers in this House would give itits due support.

Sir, I beg to move.

Enche ' V. David (Bungsar): Mr.Speaker, Sir, I beg to second themotion reserving my right to speak ata later stage.

Enche' Chin See Yin (SerembanTimor): Mr. Speaker, Sir, the motionbefore us is one that is really simplesimple in the sense that a test will beput to this House to ask that "a Com-mission be appointed to review thesystem of hospital charges and spe-cialists' fees with a view to ensuringthat the best medical treatment andmedical skill are extended to allpatients . . .

Sir, first , I will deal with the hospitalcharges. In regard to the hospitalcharges , I would like to draw your kindattention to the General Orders con-cerning the medical section which is onpage 12 where fees are laid down forfirst class, second class and third classwards. For the first class , second classand third class, with the exception ofthird class , the patients will have topay. Now, the intention there is veryclear free for those who are not ableto pay. In regard to the hospital chargesin my town , which I am aware of, itis laid down that when a patient wishes

1237 21 JUNE 1961 1.238

to seek admission to the first class, hehas to deposit $ 100, for the secondclass $50 , but the third class patientsare asked to pay $ 10, whereas it isstated in the General Orders that it isusually free of charge . What is thepurpose of this charge ? There must besomething wrong somewhere regardingthe charge of $10 deposit . Therefore,Sir, you will see that this motion hasa lot to be said for it because it is arequest for the appointment of a Com-mission.

Now, Sir, hospital charges includetreatment, and treatment comes in inthe form of prescription of medicineand examination of sickness . The firstand second class patients usually securethe services of specialists and naturallythe third class patients will not havethe chance . I have heard , at least con-cerning my town, that there are about700 beds in the hospital. Surely, Sir,you will appreciate that the number ofpatients in the first and second classwill naturally occupy a lot of time ofthe specialists as we have only onePhysician. Now that Physician - -by thetime he has been able to get round thefirst and second class wards-I do notthink he will have much time to attendto the third class patients.

Sir, in any hospital in this countryand the world over, it is usually thethird class wards where you find mostpeople. Now, for most of these patients,the attention of specialists , I think, ismore urgently required, for the simplereason that the number is much morethan those in the first and second classwards. Therefore , if a specialist shouldimpose fees, as suggested just now andproperly defined by the Honourablethe Mover of this motion , then youwill see that the purpose of having aspecialist employed in the hospital isno longer there , because the intentionof having a specialist is to cure thesick and that is the duty of the medicalprofession, which is a very noble one.

Now, I come to the question oftreatment and charges . In regard totreatment and charges , that is to makethe poor to pay, I would say thatparticularly those from the workingclass have got no money to pay. In

my town there is a Town Clinic. Inthat Town Clinic you will find thatpatients going there are mostly thosewho are not in a financial positionto go and consult a private practitioner,and because they are unable to do so,they are left with no choice and theymust get themselves cured in order togo to work but to go to the TownClinic which is a Government set-up.Therefore , after they have beenexamined and given a prescription,they have been told to pay $2 or $3for the medicine depending on thenature and the type of medicine givento the patients . As far as I know,out of one hundred cases , at leastseventy to eighty are made to pay,and most of these people are not in aposition to do so. We are speaking ofthe importance of health in thiscountry, of social services and healthservices so much, yet we are notspending enough money to give freemedical treatment.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, by these littleexamples that I have shown they aresufficient to prove that there is a needfor this Commission to be set up inso far as it concerns hospital charges.

Now, as regards the specialists inGovernment hospitals, they are doctorsmost of whom have received Govern-ment scholarships to become specia-lists-some, of course, through goodfortune, are able to become specialistswithout getting aid from the Govern-ment. All these doctors who are nowspecialists and they have becomespecialists because of the Governmentscholarships which are awarded frompublic money should give most oftheir time to practise that nobleprofession more than anything else.For that reason I feel that it is ofutmost importance that the people inthe third class wards be given moreattention than those who are in thefirst and second class. The patients inthe first and second class wards canwell afford to pay private practitionersto treat them, and among the privatepractitioners there are also specialists.I see no reason why more attentionshould be given by the specialists inthe hospital to the first and second

1239 21 JUNE 196

class patients than to those who are inthe third class.

Sir, I feel that it is important thatthis House should give every considera-tion to this proposed resolution andI hope that in the interests of thecountry the Government will give thepoor that need they require. On thequestion of health, this motion shouldbe given support. That is all I wish tosay.

The Minister of Health and SocialWelfare (Dato' Ong Yoke Lin):Mr. Speaker, Sir, the whole system ofspecialists' fees and charges, whichhas been in existence since pre-wardays, has now been under very activereview by the Government. In doingso, the Government is giving verycareful consideration to the interestsof the patients and the specialists inthe various fields of specialisationas a whole, and also to the questionof public funds. Discussions have beenheld with representatives of the specia-lists with a view to finding the mostequitable formula which, it is theintention of the Government, should beconsistent with the interests I have justmentioned.

Sir, there has been no evidence ofdiscrimination by the specialists ongrounds of the economic standing ofthe patients. In fact, our specialistsdo maintain at all times the highesttraditions of their profession in thetreatment of patients, who come undertheir care. I think it is rather unkindand unjustified for the HonourableMover to have said that these specia-lists, because of their rush for money,do not give treatment to the third classor non-paying patients. This is nottrue, because the vast majority ofpatients are non-paying cases and,whenever it is necessary, our specialistsdo give them their specialist treatment.However, it is realised by Governmentthat the existing system of fees andcharges can give rise to a feelingamong the general public that the non-paying patients do not get the sameattention as the paying ones. Inreviewing this situation or the system,it is hoped to rationalise these fees andcharges, so as to allay any such

1240

feeling. The Honourable Mover, I amafraid, has been rather over-simplifyingsocialism, when he spoke of a freemedical service or national healthservice for all. Now, Sir, it is acommon error for some people tothink that a national health service isa free service. It is nothing of thatkind. Under the National HealthService in the United Kingdom everywage-earner has deducted from hiswage packet regularly a sum of moneyto contribute towards the NationalHealth Service, whereas under oursystem at the moment we are one ofthe very few countries, I think, thatgives free medical treatment, medicinesand so on to those who are genuinelyunable to pay and these people donot have to pay towards a NationalHealth Service. I want to assure thisHouse once again -I have done itbefore that no one who goes to aGovernment hospital, either to beadmitted, or for out-patient treatment,or for any treatment in any hospitalor dispensary, who is genuinely un-able to pay, is denied free treatmentor free medicine.

The Honourable Member fromSeremban Timor has misread, I amafraid, the charges on page 12 ofCap. F of the General Orders. Hementioned third class as free. Thatrefers to mental hospitals (Laughter);whereas if he had taken the troubleto look under 1 (a) of that page, hewould have seen Third class... $1.00,indigent persons free. So, normally adollar is charged for third class, butwhenever a patient is genuinely un-able to pay, that patient gets freetreatment, free medicine, free food andalso free specialist service, which isat all times available whenever it isnecessary.

Sir, I do not agree to the appoint-ment of a Commission of Inquiry intothis matter as proposed by the Honour-able Mover, in view of what I havementioned about the Government'saction and I, therefore, oppose thismotion.

Enche' Liu Yoong Peng (Rawang):Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Minister has saidthat a third class patient does get

1241 21 JUNE 1961 1242

specialist attention. I would say that it may not be the intention of the Government to deny the third class patients specialist treatment, but we do know that there is an acute shortage of specialists in our hospitals and quite often patients who require specialist treatment have to wait for a long time. We also know that patients can only get specialist treatment on the recom­mendation of a practitioner and then the patient will have to make an appoint­ment. But in some cases the date fixed for the appointment may be a few months later. So some patients cannot afford to wait. I do know that in the case of third class patients in our hospitals specialists may give emer­gency attention, but in many cases they may have to wait very long. And I have heard that sometimes even Government doctors advise the patients to go to a private practitioner in order to get a recommendation to see the specialist, because in this way the patient would be able to get earlier date for appointment with the specia­list. I can remember that a year ago a private practitioner approached me to say that the Government doctor in the General Hospital in Kuala Lumpur asked a patient to go and see a private practitioner. He happened to go and see this particular private practitioner who, in tum, approached me.

Mr. Speaker: The motion before the House is very simple. It is only con­cerned with the "present system of hospital charges and specialists' fees . . . ". This is what we are debating.

Enche' Liu Yoong Peng: I am fully aware of what we are debating, but the reason why I have to illustrate this is to indicate the malpractice that is going on-to overcome the difficulty in seeing a specialist. As I have said, in that particular case even one Government doctor recommended to the patient to see a private practitioner in order to get a recommendation to see the spe­cialist. I would like to know, why can't the Government doctor himself recom­mend that the patient see the specialist, instead of advising him to get a recom­mendation from a private practitioner? It is certainly due to the reason that if

a patient in the third class ward gets a recommendation from the Govern­ment doctor, the specialist would not be entitled to the fees, but if the patient goes to a private practitioner to get the recommendation then the specialist would be able to charge a fee. That is why we do not consider that this practice is a good one. I am giving a clear case of what is happening in the General Hospital. I have personal knowledge of the matter, because I brought the patient to the hospital to see the Medical Superintendent, and finally the patient was recommended by the Government doctor. But anyway this practice is going on and we are not happy with such a practice. Therefore, I fully support the motion.

Enche' Zulkiftee bin Muhammad (Bachok): Tuan Yang di-Pertua, boleh jadi di-dalam doktor2 itu dan bayaran2-

nya, tetapi tidak ada specialisation. Sakit Tuan Yang di-Pertua, tidak me­mileh orang, dan tidak memileh tempat. Berdasarkan itu, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, maka ketika Kerajaan Persekutuan menggalakkan orang2 kampong yang susah supaya pergi berubat sa-chara modem dan sa-chara scientific lebeh tepat apabila perkara perubatan itu di­lakukan dengan tidak membebankan kapada orang2 yang kena sakit dengan sebab kemiskinan-nya. Usul yang ada di-hadapan mata kita ini sesuai saperti yang telah di-jelaskan oleh penchadang itu ada-lah satu usul yang berkehendak­kan supaya di-tubohkan satu Surohan Jaya dengan tujuan ia-itu dengan ada­nya Surohan Jaya itu dapat-lah tercha­pai dan memberi kemudahan perubatan kapada semua orang dengan tidak di­kira kedudokan kewangan-nya.

Tuan Yang di-Pertua, Kerajaan Per­sekutuan saperti yang telah di-nyatakan oleh Menteri tadi sedang memikirkan bagaimana-kah chara2-nya memboleh­kan asas sama dalam memberikan ubat kapada orang2 sakit. Kita tidak tahu berapa lama rundingan2 yang di-sebut­kan oleh Menteri itu sudah berjalan dan berapa lama pula lagi perkara itu akan di-jalankan. Oleh sebab yang demikian tidak·lah patut Kerajaan mendiamkan dan Kerajaan harus sedar dengan ada-nya tidak puas hati dari­pada pemimpin2 yang ada itu dan sa-

1243 21 JUNE 1961 1244

patut-nya Surohan Jaya itu di-tubohkan supaya dapat menyiasat dan mengkaji masaalah ini. Apabila Surohan Jaya itu di-tugaskan untok menyiasat tentu-lah tujuan yang besar supaya mengkaji masaalah itu dapat terchapai. Mithal­nya beri asas supaya jangan ada per­bedzaan2 di-dalam perubatan dalam sa-buah negeri atau sa-buah Kerajaan yang mengamalkan demokrasi. Tuan Yang di-Pertua, boleh-lah saya katakan bahawa orang2 yang miskin dalam Tanah Melayu ini memang tidak men­dapat perubatan yang baik, memang benar saperti yang di-katakan ia-itu sa-saorang yang miskin itu wang-nya tidak di-terima. Tetapi bagi orang yang mempunyai wang itu pada awal­nya lagi telah mendapat perubatan yang memuaskan. Jadi ini-lah yang di­maksudkan oleh usul itu supaya jangan ada lagi orang2 yang oleh kerana kemis­kinan-nya mereka tidak mendapat perubatan yang baik.

Saya, Tuan Yang di-Pertua, menyo­kong usul ini dan saya fikir patut-lah Kerajaan menyokong sebab Menteri Yang Berhormat tadi telah menyebut­kan asas-nya bahawa Kerajaan sendiri telah sedar sekarang ini, kalau Kerajaan sedang memikirkan perkara itu maka hendak-lah mengadakan satu resolution untok menyiasat-nya.

Enche' Tan Phock Kin (Tanjong): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to speak in support of the motion. From the reply given by the Honourable the Minister of Health I cannot help feeling that, simple as the motion is, he failed to grasp the whole significance of the motion, because in his reply he referred specifically only to the question of specialist fees and to nothing else. He told us that the matter is now under consideration by the Government. I tried to listen more carefully to discover when this particular consideration has been actively entered into. Perhaps· he feels that if he were to mention the date and time credit may be given to my Honourable friend the Member for Damansara. It may just happen that active consideration has just started to be given to this particular subject since my Honourable frieBd from Damansara submitted his motion.

Dato' Ong Yo~e Lin: Sir, if the Honourable Member would give way, I can clarify. The subject has been under consideration for several months already.

Enche' Tan Phock Kin: Well, I thank the Honourable Minister of Health for this information that the subject has been under consideration for several months. But I still do not know to what extent he had made progress in his discussions and in the course of his speech he failed to give a progress report (Laughter).

However, what I would like to point out to this House tonight is that the motion itself is not merely concerned with the question of hospital charges and specialist fees, because the motion goes on further-to say,

". . . that a commission of inquiry be appointed to review the said system of hospital charges and specialists' fees with a view to ensuring that the best medical treat­ment and medical skill are extended to all patients, irrespective of their economic standing, in Government hospitals throughout the Federation."

Well. the latter part of this particular motion is very important. If we are going to provide the best medical treatment and to extend medical skill to all patients irrespective of their economic standing, then the function of the Commission must go further, though their primary task will be to examine the question of fees and charges. So in this particular respect, I feel that the Honourable the Minister of Health leading a Government which is well-known for its lack of initiative (Laughter) and lack of constructive programme, fails to appre­ciate that if something is going to be done along such lines, some ;more radical steps must be taken towards changing the whole medical structure. He must realise that, and I think he appreciates it himself. - When my Honourable friend, the Member for Damansara, raised this particular point with regard to socialised medical service, the Honourable the Minister of Health pointed out that it could only be done in countries where they have a national health system and where the people will have to contribute

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towards the costs. However, he should have gone further and informed this House that this matter is also receiving consideration by his Ministry. If he had said this, then I would be quite satisfied that the Commission of Inquiry is not necessary, but in the absence of an ass¥ance in regard to this particular aspect of the problem, I feel that a Commission of Inquiry is most essential. A Commission of Inquiry, with respect to this particular function, will have to go into various aspects of the problem : not merely the aspect of fees for specialists and hospital charges but it will have to go into the whole financial structure of hospitals and to devise ways and means, whereby everybody will be entitled to specialist facilities, as suggested by my Honour­able friend, the Member, for Damansara.

Therefore, in the light of what I have said, I earnestly hope that the Honour­able Minister will reconsider his views and agree to the setting up of a Com­mission of Inquiry.

Mr. Speaker: (To Enche' K. Karam Singh) Would you like to exercise your right of reply?

Enche' K. Karam Singh: Yes, Sir. It is very strange that whenever we in the Opposition bring up any important and constructive matter, the Alliance comes forward to this House and says that that matter has been under its hat all the time, but the strange thing is that it comes out only when a motion comes up for debate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Honourable the Minister of Health said that the Honourable Member for Seremban Timor had looked at the wrong place in the G.O. and that he had looked into "Mental Hospitals-Third Class­Free" on page 12 of Cap. F. Actually the Honourable Member had referred to page 13 which says, Charges for medical services to be made to paying patients-Treatment Fee: To be charged to a paying patient who is under the care of a Specialist (except maternity cases}-Third Class patients-No charge." Page 13, Sir, states that quite clearly. Moreover, to

clear any misunderstanding that may have arisen in the Honourable Minis­ter's mind, I am sure that there are no mental hospitals in Seremban, and so the Honourable Member for Seremban could not have been mistaken.

Dr. Lim Swee Aun: Mistaken what?

Enche' K. Karam Singh: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Honourable Minister has said that there is no evidence of dis­crimination. If what I have said in my opening address is not evidence of mass, total and national discrimination, then I do not know what discrimination is. Just to bring out one or two cases where people have been discriminated against, would just be isolated cases, but I have shown how the entire mass of our people, who are poor people, are not getting medical treatment and that alone is as clear a discrimination in the Medical Service as apartheid is (Laughter).

Sir, it has become another habit with our Ministers : they think that they can get over things by praising this, that and the other. They say, "We have got a first-class Civil Service, we have got very good specialist officers." They think that by saying these nice things, all the faults are covered. Mr. Speaker, Sir, even specialists are not angels, they are human and they will know whether to choose money or not to choose it. Although they may have very high traditions, the fact that they are not angels should make us reconsider the position. Sir, the Minister has said that there are no cases of discrimination and further on he says, "whenever it is necessary, our specialists will attend to the poor"-whenever it is necessary. Sir, that statement itself shows that it is not considered necessary ordinarily to give specialist attention to the Third Class patients. It is implied from that. Probably this necessity may arise when some very disastrous consequence is brought up and then it will be for the attention not of the specialist but of the Government. ·

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Honourable Minister had tried to minimise the evil consequences of this system of re­funding by saying that there was a

1247 21 JUNE 1961 1248

feeling among the public-just a feeling. Mr. Speaker, it is not just a feeling: it is a terribly discriminatory system, which entirely neglects the poor people of our country from getting the best medical attention. That is very far from just a feeling. Probably up to now the poor people of our country have not known why they have not got the best medical treatment; and, in fact, a few months ago I myself would not have known it had I not seen this General Order and found out the evil consequences of section 56. And how many people in our country-leave alone our poor ra'ayats-and how many Members of Parliament (even including myself a few months ago) would have realised that there is such a discriminatory provision in our General Orders?

Mr. Speaker; Sir, the Minister has said that he hopes he will find an equitable formula and that he hopes to rationalise the service. These are nice

14513-700-11-5-62.

sounding but very vague words. Being a Minister he would have known the condition of the Medical Service from inside and he would have been in a better position than anyone else in this House to put forward concrete measures in this House, which will show that the people of our country; irrespective of their economic standing, will be assured of the best medical treatment and skill in our country.

Mr. Speaker: Time is up. Have you finished?

Enche' K. Karam Singh: Yes; Sir. I thank all Honourable Members who have given their support to this motion.

Question put, and negatived.

ADJOURNMENT Mr. Speaker: The meeting

adjourned sine die.

Adjourned at 10.30 dclock p.m.

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